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Post 20

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 10:53pmSanction this postReply
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People should vote for the candidate they think will do the best job. Where is the fantasy in that? Last time I checked there were more than two candidates running. Although I admit Badnarik has no chance of winning whatsoever, I will still vote for him because he will fight politically for the ideas and values that make the US a great nation.

My vote is too precious to waste on those who will not fight for what I believe in. I do what I can to encourage people to vote for candidates that reflect what is right.

You compromise the meaning of your vote when you vote for someone who is merely the lesser of two evils. If you think a candidate has something of value to offer then you should vote for that candidate. If you think that there is not one candidate that should lead this nation, then you abstain from voting.

I think America deserves a vote for Badnarik. Hypothetically, if Badnarik wasn't running and I were forced at gun point to choose between Bush and Kerry, I would say Kerry simply because he isn't Bush.

1. Bush led us into war under, at best, misleading intelligence that came from the CIA concerning WMD purchases and the alleged direct corelation between Al Queda and Saddam.

2. Haliburton (the company that Dick Cheney was in charge of prior to becoming Vice President and still recieves money from) was awarded a good percentage of the no-bid contracts awarded in the reconstruction phase.

3. Bush has used the War on Terror to dramatically increase the size of the government as well as justify the Patriot Act which is the greatest threat to liberty I have ever seen.

4. He ignored information that was given to him by Clinton's military advisors concerning the possibilty of an attack against the US by Al Queda during the beginning of his Presidency.

5. To my knowledge, no WMDs have been found.

Another thing to remember is that it is often during times of war in which citizens begin to lose their rights. I think this is the best time for questioning the leadership of this country. I do think that Saddam was a horrific ruler, and I hope he is put to death after being given due process of law. One thing that you are right about, Barbara, is that Kerry's waffling would be disasterous in time of war. Badnarik doesn't strike me as a waffler on such issues as defense. Defense, not pre-meditated war mind you. Also, Badnarik is opposed to military draft, something which Kerry and Bush support. The two bills (S89 and HR163) floating through Congress concerning draft would make the Vietnam draft a cakewalk by comparison for the reason that college kids like myself would no longer be exempt and that Canada has agreed not to grant refugee status to would be draft evaders. If a draft comes to pass, then Hola, mis compadres de Mexicanos!

Adam Buker



Post 21

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 11:01pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Joseph,

Under the WWII scenario you depicted I would have no hesitation in throwing my weight behind the US rather than Germany, because the issues were so extreme and clear cut; in the actual event - which was full of a Clear and Present Danger - one was totally evil and murderous, the other trying to prevent it. 
I guess it's just that I have always had a "thing" about Objectivism being neither "Right" nor "Left" from my days discussing / promoting it back in Uni.
When I used to be asked "is Obj. more Right wing or Left, I used to answer;
" If I tell you I am a Hindu, you don't ask me if I am more Roman Catholic or Baptist. The question is irrelevant, and in the same way your question is irrelevant, because Objectivism is neither.  All political parties in the West today, are, like communism/fascism, two sides of the same coin.
They share the same principles and the same philosophy. Objectivism comes from a totally diferent perspective; is a totally different philosophy and has no relationship to any of them"
I felt this as a core principle so strongly that the more clearly I saw how there really is nothing to choose between the parties, and saw here in Aus. the populace being conned into believing they had to choose, the more I moved toward the idea of saying, with the Bard,  "A pox on both your houses."  And it has become for me a basic part of practising Objectivism.  However, I can see - roughly - I think,  where the opposite view comes from and why some may believe that voting for thieving mad power parasites is pragmatically acceptable. But it will never be for me.
I think on this one we will have to "agree to differ"
Cheers, Cass 




Post 22

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 11:05pmSanction this postReply
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Incidentally Matthew, congrats. on posting such an interesting and stimulating article. I've enjoyed the discussion. Many thanks.
Cass




Post 23

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 11:27pmSanction this postReply
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Chris,
 
You wrote:
The new brand of right-wing politics is "progressive conservatism," which is, in essence, Big Government Conservatism.  It's not simply something dominated by fundamentalist types in social affairs, but something greatly influenced by neoconservative "nation-building"---both at home and abroad.  That "nation-building" enterprise encompasses the very "corporatism" that 'left to its own devices' is inimical to the economic liberty that all of us see as a bulwark against statism. (Let's not forget that neoconservatism as an intellectual movement is rooted not in the Goldwater right, but in the social democratic- and Trotskyite-left.)
This is an intriguing series of intellectual claims, to say the least!
 
I don't understand what is meant here by nation-building at home, nor corporatism inimical to economic liberty, nor Trotskyite neo-conservatism. Of course -- you might need a long monograph to explain or I might need a whole new education to comprehend! ;-) I don't reasonably expect this.
 
Still, my understanding of the Richard [genius!] Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney neo-cons is that they really are influenced by Goldwater/Reagan/Gingrich who in turn learned somewhat from the libertarians and Objectivists -- just not nearly enough. Because the neo-cons are so superior to the anachronistic Left and the recent Right, they think they know it all, when in fact they know very little. So they're intellectually in way over their head in Iraq, much to their amazement. They just naively expected "Westernism" to win it for them -- without actually knowing what Westernism properly is.
 
My take on the current world situation is that the current cultural Dark Age bottomed out in 1985 or so, and we're all thankfully finally ascending. But we're not nearly close enough to real, true, complete, Western liberal perfection to live rich, full, happy lives -- and legitimately push around foreigners. We just think we are. Hence the wild overconfidence of the neo-con element of the Right, the resurgence of the traditionalist Right, and the current quagmire in Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
Any thoughts here, folks? ;-)




Post 24

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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Also, Badnarik is opposed to military draft, something which Kerry and Bush support. The two bills (S89 and HR163) floating through Congress concerning draft would make the Vietnam draft a cakewalk by comparison for the reason that college kids like myself would no longer be exempt and that Canada has agreed not to grant refugee status to would be draft evaders.


I just want to step in here and veer totally into a new topic by asking: where in Bob's holey name is this rumor about Bush and Kerry supporting HR163 coming from?

HR163 and its corresponding senate bill S89, to be brief, were introduced in January 2003 by Congressman Charles Rangel (a Democrat) as some sort of crazy attempt to make rich kids as vulnerable to a war as poor kids (whom he claimed were required by socioeconomics to enlist anyway). The online Congressional record (see http://thomas.loc.gov/ and search for HR163) shows the bill as having been referred to committee immediately and to subcommittee a month later, as well as being sent to the DOD for comment. Since there has been no action since then, presumably neither the DOD nor the members of the Total Force subcommittee were too enthusiastic about it.

When people first started noticing this bill early this year, and the rumors started flying, there were a few articles which quoted members of the Bush administration as saying that they saw no reason for a new draft. I personally have not seen anything from Bush reversing that, nor have I heard Kerry express any support for the draft bill. If someone can give me a reference to any source in which Bush or Kerry express such support, I would like to see it, but I find it highly unlikely that either ever said any such thing—especially during an election year.

Okay. I'm done now.



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Post 25

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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A very brief reply to a subject that can turn into a monograph, as Andre suggests.  :)

Daniel:  I agree that the GOP moderate luminaries are not the grass roots. These conventions are put on for two audiences:  Red Meat for the party faithfuls, and more moderate politicians who hope to appeal to that spectrum of independent voters who are still undecided.  In a close election, it is the difference between winning and losing.

Jim:  Yes, indeed.. it is nice to disagree.  Often the problem in these kinds of debates is that people will tend to doubt one another's intellectual honesty.  But, lo and behold, reasonable people can actually disagree!  Two people looking at the same facts, coming at things from different contexts of knowledge, or interests, can come to different conclusions.  It's a novel concept!  :)  

Thanks too for the kind words about the trilogy.  In lieu of a complete discussion on nation-building, let me just say that the neoconservative heart is in the right place:  It is necessary to change a culture in order to change social and political institutions.  That's a lot better than those who argue that all we need to do is get rid of the state, and the rest will follow automatically.  In a culture that does not appreciate freedom and its prerequisites, that state would come back the next day.

I believe, however, that cultural changes must come from within, rather than being imposed from without, or from what I have called an Archimedean standpoint outside the culture, traditions, or history of the society in question.  That's why cultural context is so crucially important when discussing political change.

I suspect that more fundamental change might come from, say, a homegrown liberation movement among the young in Iran---who reject the mullahs, than would come from, say, Afghanistan, which is a narco-state of tribal warfare, or, say, Iraq, which is fragmented along many cultural, ethnic and tribal divides (the Sunni, Shi'ite, and Kurdish distinctions are only some of the more prominent ones). 

It is possible for politics to influence the shape of culture, but, like Rand, I believe that cultural change is a fundamental prerequisite to political change.  That's why the people in Russia are still struggling in the post-Communist era; they lack many of the cultural preconditions for the achievement of capitalism---even though, politically, they've dismantled much of the central planning apparatus.  Authoritarian political structures still exist there, as does a flourishing Russian Mafia, and there's always the possibility that some form of authoritarianism will return with a vengeance. 

Which brings me, briefly, to Andre's points.  What I mean by "nation-building" at home is what I implied in my "Caught Up In the Rapture" article:  that Bush sees himself as a cultural warrior, and that he sees religiously-inspired politics as a tool to change culture.  I think the bully pulpit can be used to affect civic culture---the way Reagan did to Washington culture or the way Rudy Giuliani did to NYC culture.  But I still think the primary causal relationship is culture --- > politics, whatever the reciprocal effects.  That's what I was taught and what I accepted from people as diverse as Rand and Hayek. 

The neoconservatives have a long intellectual lineage.  Many of the original thinkers, who built the neoconservative intellectual movement, were disgruntled social democrats or former New Dealers, who turned from the Stalinist left and its Soviet worship, who saw the fallacies of central planning, but who still accepted the welfare state as a given.  They also retained the notion of state planning---except in the service of the "right" ideas.  Today's neocons may give a nod to the "right" goals of Reagan, but the means by which they wish to achieve these goals---with muscular government intervention (as described in my "progressive conservatism" post at HNN)---is a nod to the "left" they abandoned. 

That is the philosophy underlying the belief that it is possible to construct a culture of "democracy" in Iraq---by simply imposing "democratic" institutions on a society that knows little or nothing of procedural democracy, freedom, or individualism. 

This is a very complex area that I can't possibly address comprehensively here; but I've been writing about it in many, many posts now for nearly two years.  You might want to check through all the archives at notablog.net for some of the key essays on the subject.

Cheers!




Post 26

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Cass: thanx for taking up this discussion - was 'out-of-bounds' for some time and would like to add my two cents.

1. even if the 'lifeboat situation' may partly apply, it also applies with the very egoistical consequences of such a situation: if I vote to have the Americans in to kick the Nazis out, I may very well be one of the 'victims' of American liberation. And I don't much care whether I get killed by Nazis or GIs - I'm just as dead.
I prefer to find a way to keep myself healthy and alive, with my own means and ressources. Which is another reason for me not to vote: I fend for myself - I don't need any parasitical or benevolent party/government to do that for me!
And don't tell me I cannot fight armies: I CAN! By refusing to lose my individuality through becoming a part of an army.
The old motto is still valid: Imagine there's a war and nobody goes ...
Incidently: Americans certainly took their sweet time to enter the war, only reacting when they were attacked themselves, and then not even by the Germans. So there was no 'altruistic and noble' motive to save a down-trodden people and rid the world of thugs. They had their own reasons/motivations and apart from the impact they undoubtedly had on the liberation, they certainly did not do it out of pure nobility. And I for one would like to know what the cost to me-myself-and-I will be before I invite the liberators in!
Same goes for more current wars, where the purely parasitical motives are hidden behind a 'save-the-world' facade, to do in principle excactly the same the dictatorships do openly. Except we don't talk about who goes to the sharks ... what do you call it: 'Collateral damage'? Or was it 'political necessities'?

2. even if I agree with the 'political advocates' in this discussion, that we can at least move a little bit forward at a time (personally I don't have the patience for 'one baby-step at a time' - so please count me out), your ideal will again go out the window (or to the sharks) if you follow the last election in Germany where the Green party (sort of alternative and ecological party) formed a coalition with the Red party (the socialists democratics) and were voted into government on three promises (written into the coalition contract, not just words on TV), which they promptly broke:
a) out of atomic energy by 2010 - postponed indefinitely
b) equalisation of alternative partnerships with marriage (only in name and not for all states yet - no tax-, inheritance-, adoption- or other-rights attached) and
c) anti-discrimination law for the whole of Europe which was blocked by the 'Nay' vote of Germany for the entirety of Europe!
I may not know as much about your political parties in US or AUS, but I do know that they are politicians and as such not one iota better than our German counterparts, and you can count on it, that even your 'baby-steps' will soon be reversed again with even bigger steps: in the opposite direction! Not voting will at least not take me on their journey ...
 (Btw: there is a law here in Germany, that if an election turns out less than a certain percentage of voters, the election will be invalid.)

Wish you luck though that your intentions turn out more successful ... even I as an indivual could profit from your imagined advantages ...

Until then I'll continue working for my 'individual' liberation. Where I am the best (and sole) judge of what's good for me and how to defend myself against true or imagined/built-up threats.
Fear is the double-standard you base politics/governments on:
The fear of an outside enemy (greater than my puny little self), the fear of an inside enemy (more numerous than my single abandoned voice-in-the-wilderness), the fear that one party will turn out worse than the other (they never promised me that the opposition won't cheat me either).
I don't buy into fear. I buy into individuals. And into individual choices, even if it means that I have to enter compromises to keep myself alive, by working for a system that currently exploits me. They only get the barest minimum of my energy for as much return-value as I can possibly barter for.
One thing they will not exploit though: the ressources of my mind ... they will not get my consent ... and when they finished eating up each other, then those creators that are still left will start over again, as some of us already do ... because we CAN build a world without fear or dependance!

'United we Stand!' - 'Together you Fall!'

(And my aplogies to those who personally suffered from the 9/11 tragedy. No slights intended there.)

VSD




Post 27

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Vera, Cass, Adam, Ethan, Joe, Barbara, James,

Vera, Cass, Adam, and Ethan are John Galt's and Fancisco D'anconias.

Joe, Barbara, and James are Dagney Taggarts and Hank Reardons. Good people, but they just don't get it yet. They still think they can win within the system.

Regi





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Post 28

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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To all who oppose trying to "work within the system" (or however you wish to put it),

At the end of World War II in the UK, the Labour Party came to power in what I regard as the biggest electoral disaster in British political history. Though there had been a slow build up in regulation and welfare services in the decades prior to WWII, the Labour government within the space of a few years transformed the country into a fully fledged welfare state, and the nation entered a time of "consensus" politics, in which the Conservative party became in essence a paternalist party, generally cautious about any further socialist reforms, but fundamentally accepting the existence of the welfare state.

Did the few libertarians and free-marketeers that remained simply accept that they couldn't win within the system? No. They found themselves a few courageous politicians who were willing to listen, notably Sir Keith Joseph and Margaret (now Lady) Thatcher who embraced free market ideas and were then seen as being on the extremist fringes of the party. Result? Lady Thatcher took the party from the paternalist pricks, swept to power and sledgehammered the system from within. Granted she didn't get anywhere near far enough (and in fairness probably wouldn't have wanted to go much further than she did), but the existing parties can be influenced to the point that they bring about radical change in the right direction. That's what the Republican Liberty Caucus seeks to do in relation to the GOP, that's what many British libertarians seeks to do (and did) in relation to the Conservative Party and now the UK Independence Party. And, that's what many of us here are advocating.




Post 29

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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Regi - remember that Ayn was a Dagney in this world- she was only a John Galt in her make-believe world.



Post 30

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Barbara said:

"Whatever you may think of Bush, surely the time to mount an all-out attack against those domestic policies of which you disapprove is when we are living in relative peace, not when, in an age of weapons of mass destruction, we must deal with a concerted attempt to annihilate us on the part of perhaps millions of religious fanatics."

Why must I wait for peace time?



Post 31

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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James,

Regi - remember that Ayn was a Dagney in this world- she was only a John Galt in her make-believe world.

James - remember, Objectivism is Ayn Rand's philosophy, how she lived her life is not. It is Objectivism that is worth knowing and applying in one own's life, not emulation of the life of Ayn Rand, or do you think we all ought to cheat on our spouses, depend on drugs, and ... well who cares what she did, except for what she wrote.

I personally do not regard Ayn Rand's failures in her personal life (e.g. only being a Dagney) an ideal. The heroes of her fiction are just such ideals and exactly what she intended them to be, even if she could not achieve those ideals in her own life.

Aim higher, James, aim higher! (I mean that in the kindliest way possible.)

Regi





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Post 32

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew,

Eventually, everyone will understand that no matter how many small apparent "victories" there are for those who truly desire individual liberty and truth, all governments everywhere will become continually more coercive, suppressive, and tyranical. Just as Dagney and Hank won a small victory here and there, in this battle and that, while losing the war all along, that is exactly what is happening in every political sphere where any at all are still struggling to stem the tide of totalitarianism.

You guys are not the bad guys, just as Dagney and Hank were not the bad guys. God, I wish you would succeed. But I would be less than honest if I even pretended there was any reason at all to believe you will.

I do not agree with Joe's method, but he is right about one thing, nothing but an intellectual revolution will change the direction of political and social disintegration.

Regi




Post 33

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Exactly so Regi;

I think I lost my way a bit in a post back there, and would like to put my perspective more tightly
(just come off a 10 hour shift and very tired so struggling for coherence!! :-)}.
* Truly the only lasting change - for, Matthew, there are few to no guarantees that what Maggie Thatcher did will last more than a couple of governments - is cultural.  Given that, and that there is only so much energy, that's where we should be directing our efforts.
* One cannot "see the way" and bring maximum strength to any battle without clearly articulated and strongly held {Objectivist} principles.
* Once you have enunciated and understood a principle, you simply cannot compromise on it. To attempt to compromise with corrupt governments is to act like Robert Stadler from Atlas Shrugged.
* To quote from Atlas Shrugged something most relevant to this discussion
Mr. Thompson sighed. "I don't get it ....(Why) don't you pretend to join us, then gain control and outsmart us?"
(John Galt speaks) "For the same reason that makes you offer it: because you'd win. ...(Because) it's the attempt of your betters to beat you on your terms that has allowed your kind to get away with it for centuries."
 
You can't play a corrupt game with corrupt rules and try to win a clean fight. It's a contradiction and a compromise - and they don't work.
What you risk now is a populace struggling to understand Objectivism saying, along with the corrupt politicians,  "Even Objectivists support the current system to a large extent. After all, they vote for it - they write tracts supporting the different major parties. They just want to tweek it a bit here and there. They aren't that different to the current parties. They just have a few "right wing" views. But they're really just another part of the status quo". 
And in truth, nothing could be further from the truth. If you want your truth to shine, you've got to live it to the last degree. 




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Post 34

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Adam, Vera, Cass, and Regi,

Adam says "My vote is too precious to waste on those who will not fight for what I believe in." and "You compromise the meaning of your vote when you vote for someone who is merely the lesser of two evils.".

Adam, your not making any sense here.  You talk about votes as if they have some higher meaning.  You say we compromise the meaning of our vote, which is too precious to waste, but you haven't said how or why.  How is it a compromise?  What are you compromising?  You use the term too loosely, as if it were just a smear attempt.  And what's the significance of a vote?  The primary significance is helping to decide who gets elected.  If there are only two viable candidates, your choosing the best of the two.  You're making the same mistake I mentioned earlier.  You're trying to make the vote mean something it doesn't.  A vote does not mean an unequivocal endorsement.  It means "I pick this person, because he is the best of the people I think can get elected".

The fact that it's a winner-takes-all system is well documented.  We all know that if you vote for a candidate in a third party, he has no chance of winning.  And yet you want us to ignore reality and act as if he did have a chance?  And further, you'd say that those who don't ignore reality are "wasting" their votes, or "compromising" the meaning?  Only if you consider indulging in fantasy to be a useful action.

And everyone who keeps saying "a vote for the lesser evil is a vote for evil" is flat out wrong.  If he's the best of your real choices (not these fantasy choices), it isn't a vote for evil.  That whole notion is ridiculous.  You do not endorse statism by voting.  Just like you don't endorse the income tax by getting a job.  Nor do you endorse public roads by driving on them.  You are all using standards that are arbitrary and wrong.

Vera, you say "And don't tell me I cannot fight armies: I CAN! By refusing to lose my individuality through becoming a part of an army." 

Ha ha.  Good one.  And when the enemy soldiers come to kill and rape you, or just send you to a concentration camp, you can say "I refuse to endorse this activity".  I'm sure that'll matter.

I don't like your reply for a number of other reasons. 
1.)  You ignore the difference between the US and the Nazis by suggesting the possibility you may die either way.  That's just avoiding the issue, as well as undermining all ethics by saying since we can't know the future, any choice we make might be bad.  So lets not do anything!  Yeah...that's a great basis for an ethical system.
2.)  You seem to imply that America is wrong for not going to war earlier out of altruism.  What happened to rational self-interest?  You talk about nobility as if it were self-sacrificial.
3.)  You again ignore critical differences by suggesting collateral damage is the same as intentionally slaughtering unarmed citizens.
4.)  You say "Not voting will at least not take me on their journey ...".  Are you serious?  If your government passes an oppressive law, do you think you aren't going to suffer because you didn't vote?
5.)  You talk about moving forward a little at a time, and how that might be reversed.  It certainly can be.  But what's the alternative?  If the alternative is a naked dive into tyranny, I'd rather have a little bit of freedom that's slowly reversed, thank you.  Are you really so anxious for society to end so you can start rebuilding?  Do you really think it doesn't matter?

Regi, I still don't buy your view that hiding in fear from the government and waiting for society to collapse is the noble ideal you try to make it out to be.  Hell, you can't even hope that we'll rebuild a better world afterwards, given your premise that things always get worse.  It's called a malevolent universe premise.  And that makes you Dominique Francon.  Won't your wife be shocked?

Cass, I'm glad you would choose the US vs. Nazi Germany, but don't you see the point?  That's the issue of politics!  You're not given the option to choose neither!  When the Nazis are coming, your choice is to side with the US and it's relative freedom, or be ruled by Nazis.  Saying that you're above it all, or that you dislike both won't change the facts.  You don't stay pure or clean by refusing to choose.  You become dead.  How does voting somehow make the choice evil?  Instead of throwing your life into harms way, you just have to check a box.  How does this transform the choice from a positive moral action, to a hopelessly immoral one?




Post 35

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 12:09amSanction this postReply
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Joe said:
You talk about votes as if they have some higher meaning.  You say we compromise the meaning of our vote, which is too precious to waste, but you haven't said how or why.  How is it a compromise?  What are you compromising?

I say:
I view my vote as a moral sanction for a candidate. I do not claim that the candidate that I am voting for (Badnarik) has any chance of winning. I will nonetheless vote for him because he is the only candidate worth voting for. I agree with his principles, his policies and his plan for moving America toward the freedom it needs and deserves. A candidate like Badnarik derseves my vote and my moral support and I will give it to him. My vote itself will have almost no effect on the election outcome. John Kerry and G.W. will not lose any sleep over my lost vote. However, my vote matters to me. It matters that I use my vote to support the candidates that I think are right for the job. To do less than that would qualify as compromising. Eventhough Badnarik will not get elected I still have the ability to vote for him. He is still a choice (though an extremely unlikely one) and as long as I can choose the best I will do so.

Joe said:
You use the term (compromise) too loosely, as if it were just a smear attempt. 

(parentheses mine)

I say:

How can you interpret my use of the word compromise as a smear attempt? Whom or what am I smearing?

Joe said:
And what's the significance of a vote?  The primary significance is helping to decide who gets elected.  If there are only two viable candidates, your choosing the best of the two.  You're making the same mistake I mentioned earlier.  You're trying to make the vote mean something it doesn't.  A vote does not mean an unequivocal endorsement.  It means "I pick this person, because he is the best of the people I think can get elected".

I say:
The whole purpose of voting is to choose who is qualified to lead our nation, not pick the lesser evil out of the likely winners. You may argue that my approach is impractical, but I view it as both practical and moral. It is practical in the sense that you cannot promote good policies and good principles by voting for candidates that do not reflect them. Although I will not see the results short term, I do believe that through supporting good candidates and their ideas while educating others about them, I can make a difference toward bringing about a positive change of leadership to this nation. My approach is moral in the sense that every action taken in this approach is used to support the good and not the evil.

I agree with the idea that a vote does not mean unequivocal endorsement, however that is the effect in practice. No one looks at a vote for candidate A and interpret that vote as being against canidate B. The vote is counted merely as a vote for candidate A. Since there is no vote against option on the ballot, I will vote for a candidate that I think is the best regardless of viability.

Adam



Post 36

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 3:16amSanction this postReply
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Regi, you wrote: "Joe, Barbara, and James are Dagney Taggarts and Hank Reardons. Good people, but they just don't get it yet. They still think they can win within the system."

But you see, Regi, there is no strike and no Galt's Gulch today. All we've got is the system. If we don't work within it, what shall we do instead? Sit and sulk? Scream and yell? There's another relevant fact. Even if there were a strike today, which could only have very long-range objectives, I don't think I would join it; the threat of Islamo-fascism is too great and it must be fought before we are overrun. For the same reason, I probably wouldn't have joined such a strike during World WarII; that might have resulted in Hitler taking over. The real, more immediate threat of totalitarianism today lies, not in George Bush but in Muslim fundamentalism.

Dean, I expresssed myself very sloppily when I said we must wait for relative peace before mounting an all-out attack on domestic policies of which we disapprove. Thanks for catching it. What I should have said is that we should wait for relative peace before rejecting Bush because of some of his domestic policies. We have every reason to protest them and to try to have them changed.

Barbara






Post 37

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 3:49amSanction this postReply
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Joe did a great job here of explaining why & how a vote should be cast *in context*. I believe fully in voting for the party - if it exists - that best - preferably 100% - represents what one believes in ... in times of calm. Joe might disagree with that, but I would advocate it - & as leader of Libertarianz, *did* advocate it vigorously - as an honest means of sending a signal to the statists that we're coming!

In times of crisis one suspends business as usual & mucks in. Western civilisation is under attack from what Barbara Branden so accurately calls Islamo-fascists. The least intelligent libertarian, let alone Objectivist, should have absorbed the fact by now in his life that western civilisation is qualitatively, with all its flaws, light years ahead of Islamo-fascism. Nonetheless, the usual motley array of Chamberlain-like handwringing appeasing scum - properly labelled Saddamites in this context - are coming forth to say that the west has no right to resist & counter-attack, since the west is not yet fully libertarian, or did bad things in the past. Philosophically speaking, that's rationalistic, context-dropping sub-garbage. Existentially & ethically speaking, it defies the act of speech. It is literally unspeakable. So - Rule Number One in the current context: do *not* vote for a Saddamite. That rules out Badnarik. Rule Number Two: *do* vote for the person who will mount the best resistance & counter-attack against the Islamo-fascists. That clearly is Bush. Clear, that is, to anyone but masturbating academics, pseudo-philosophers & their deeply stupid coat-tail clingers. These same scum are probably sitting around their television sets right now - the same television sets that their Taleban heroes would ban - saying that Putin has no right sending in the special forces to liberate those kids from *that* branch of the Islamo-fascists, because he's not a true libertarian. Galt give me strength!!!!

I learned today that leading Saddamites on their vile anarcho-fuck pro-Islamo-fascist web sites refer to me as a "Bush-eater." I wear their abuse - they who brown-nose Saddam & Osama - as a badge of honour.

Linz



Post 38

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 4:49amSanction this postReply
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Linz: "I learned today that leading Saddamites on their vile anarcho-fuck pro-Islamo-fascist web sites refer to me as a "Bush-eater." "

HA Ha HA hA!!!!!!

At least the bastards have a sense of humor! Bush-eater!!! Love it! Just as well you can take as good as you give, Linz :-).

(not to diminish the fact that they *are* sadammite scum, at least they are sadammite scum clever enough to come up with clever names!)
(Edited by David Bertelsen on 9/03, 4:50am)




Post 39

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 5:13amSanction this postReply
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Linz,
Very quick reply. I think there's a growing confusion of understanding on this thread because of the additional complication of the Islamo-fascist Iraq question. I think it may be clouding some issues.
Cant speak for the others who hold a similar view of mine to not voting for scum, but I of course do not support either I-f's or Saddam, and they do have to be beaten. I dont think thats what any of us had in mind, certainly I didnt.  I think it is actually a different question, more along the lines of
"How do you think we need to beat the growing I-f problem". some might say - vote for the current regime most likely to take the war to them, otherwise might say otherwise. Gotta go
Cass




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