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Sunday, August 8, 2004 - 8:18pmSanction this postReply
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I would have posted this thread in the 'SOLO on Israel' thread, but it seemed a bit off topic.  I really only began to pay attention to and learn more about the Arab-Israeli conflict over the past couple years.  Here's a historical question I've been grappling with lately:

Was the creation of the modern state of Israel and the relocation of European Jews to the heart of an Islamic region the best possible solution to the threats faced by Jews?


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Post 1

Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 3:07amSanction this postReply
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Pete, you asked"

"Was the creation of the modern state of Israel and the relocation of European Jews to the heart of an Islamic region the best possible solution to the threats faced by Jews?"

There are several answers to your question.

First, on the part of most European Jews -- or, at least, those who were still alive after the Holocaust -- there was a strong historical significance to the land they went to. For them, it was the promised land for which they had yearned.

Secondly, there was nowhere else for them to go. All other countries in the world consistently refused to accept them. You may know the story of the shipload of 900 Jews escaping Germany during World War 11 who were turned back to their deaths by every country where they tried to land, and turned back from American shores by the Roosevelt Administration.

Also, by the time they fled Europe for what would become Israel, there was already a substantial Jewish population in Palestine; as early as the beginning of the First World War, between 80,000 and 90,000 Jews lived there. And there was no such thing as a Palestinian state: a Jewish homeland would not be carved out of a pre-existing Palestinian State. Part of "Palestine" was governed by Syria, part by Lebanon, part by other Arab countries. Even King Abdullah of Jordan stated that "the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land [to Jews] as they are in. . . weeping about it."

Post 2

Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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Part of "Palestine" was governed by Syria, part by Lebanon, part by other Arab countries.
Actually, the entire geographic area called "Palestine" was a part of the Ottoman Empire until WWI, when the British conquered the Turks and seized it. The British Mandate lasted from 1917 to 1948.

-- Michelle


Post 3

Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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So there was no "usurpation and expulsion" of Arab Muslims from the region of Palestine when the Jews arrived, from the beginning?  Then where has the Muslim hostility toward the Jews come from?  Envy?  Resentment from the Jews' accomplishments in that region?

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Post 4

Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
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Orion--

The question you're asking would really require a book for an answer. But here is the shortest answer I can manage:

Strictly speaking, there were few literal expulsions of Arabs by Jews. But there were some, confined to a specific period and circumstance:  The documented explusions of Arabs took place between December 1947 and the summer of 1948, during war time. There were two different wars here. Between December 1947 and May 1948 you have an Arab-Jewish-British civil war taking place under British authority. From May 1948 on, the British leave, and Israel declares independence and you have a war between the State of Israel and the Arab states. I'll call these War 1 and War 2.

War 1 was a free-for-all between Arab and Zionist forces, which in my view was simultaneously initiated by both sides. Both sides engaged in expulsions while the British looked on more or less helplessly. These explusions were sporadic, not systematic, because the fighting was sporadic rather than systematic.

War 2 took place after the British left, and involved an invasion by the Arab states of the new Israeli state. At this point, the Israelis systematically began to expel Arabs from Israel and the Arab states began to expel Jews as well. The expelled Jews were integrated into Israel, but the expelled Arabs were sent to refugee camps (and many remain there).

The best book I've read on this issue is Benny Morris's Origins of the Palestinian Refugee Problem. Morris is an Israeli historian. His politics are eccentric, but he is a good historian.

Arabs were also made refugees during the 1967 war, which was initiated in my view by the Soviet Union, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria (in that order of culpability).

So there were expulsions on both sides, and you can draw your own moral conclusions about their status. I don't see how the Palestinians can invoke the preceding history to show that Israel is exclusively to blame for their plight.  So envy and malice are part of the explanation for Arab animosity for Israel. But the history does not make the Zionists/Israelis blameless either. There is room for some legitimate Arab grievances. (Nowadays, I would say that the grievances pertain to Israel's settlements policy, which do involve literal expropriation of land. So while explusion may not be an issue, usurpation is.)

If you go farther back in history (like 1890-1947), you encounter a different issue. The Zionists settled Palestine by buying tracts of land. The rural land in Palestine was held by absentee landowners whose title to the land was set by the Ottoman land codes that were in place before the Zionists arrived. These codes were fairly unjust to rural Palestinian peasants, and Zionist land sales exacerbated the difficulties by rendering many of the peasants homeless. (Of course, the Zionists also created economic opportunities for some Arabs, so this is not a one-way issue.) The difficulty here is that from the Zionist perspective, they were simply buying land by the existing land codes (what else were they supposed to do?), whereas from the Palestinian perspective, the land codes were themselves unjust, imposed by an outside power (the Ottoman Turks), and the sheer size of the Zionist purchases caused hardship. Whether you want to call this an "expulsion" depends on how you understand a complex situation.

There is also the issue that Zionist agriculture was generally more efficient than Arab agriculture, and externally subsidized as well, so that played a role as well. So envy (and ignorance) did play a role here.

Ask a simple question, & you get a book in response.


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Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 7:40pmSanction this postReply
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Irfan,

Thanks for that explicit response... And to cut through all of those other possibly relevant occurences, to the heart of things, I would say that right now the truly determinative causes of the conflict are two things:

1) The Muslim resentment that the Jews can accomplish what they "mysteriously" cannot under their system of living, and

2) The extremely stifling effects that Islamic fundamentalism has upon human progress, for the Arab Muslims.


Post 6

Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara writes:

'For them, it was the promised land for which they had yearned.'

Incidentally, the above reminds me of a Dennis Miller quote:

"Now, if God gives you a slice of land on a piece of desert and calls it the Promised Land, you gotta ask yourself: Promised Land? Hasn't God ever been to Cabo?"

(For his complete rant on the Arab-Israeli conflict, read here, it's HILARIOUS:
http://www.hbo.com/dml/past_rants/20020531.html)

But I digress.  The main reason I ask the question is that over 50 years later, the most dangerous place on earth for a Jew to live is in Israel.

Were there any other alternatives to the Jewish refugee problem of the 1940's?  I don't know, but I do know that Jews have lived in relative safety throughout the West since then, particularly here in America.

And though the Westerner in me identifies more with Israeli culture than with the Islamic culture of death (which seems so pervasive on the Arab side), I find myself taking issue with some fundamental aspects of the state of Israel, specifically its collectivism.

Most of what I have read about the influential figures of the Zionist movement is that they were staunch socialists.  I thus don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that at least some of them had power motives in creating a national homeland, and saw the (justifiable) fear on the part of the Jewish people as an opportunity for political gain.  In general, my overall impression is that although Israel imported some of the finer democratic traditions of Europe to Israel, this is not a country that was explicitly founded on a premise of individual rights, as might be implied by some of the staunchly pro-Israel Objectivists.   I thus take issue when groups like ARI say we should offer our "unequivocal" support to Israel.

Additionally, the idea of ethnicity as a criterian for citizenship is alien to me as an American.  That borders on tribalism in my opinion.         

However, this is not to suggest that Israel has no right to exist.  The situation is such now that they are there in numbers, and they're there to stay.  And, indeed, they are to be applauded for the fact that that they afford their citizens rights unheard of throughout most of the Arab/Islamic world. 

And, of course, I'm also not suggesting that the influential portion of the Arab/Palestinian side of the equation is anything short of heinous. 

So I have a radical idea - how about a one state solution?  There will be no established religion, and property rights to the land shall be ceded to individuals.  This way the moderates and individualists on each side can unite, and take on the religious extremists on both sides. In turn, the first ever country in the Middle East to be founded on the principle that each person is an end in themself (and not a member of some religion or ethnic group) will have been created.

But I'm not going to hold my breath on that one...


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Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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i was also thinking about that one-state solution.

i don't know all the consequences, and haven't thought enough about it, but it seems like a fine solution, as compared to the continual conflict.

this way, neither side has to be destroyed, only evil ideas must perish.

i also agree that israel should not have race as a criterion for citizenship, and that religion should be completely separated from the state.

i think maybe even america should demand this, with the threat of them losing our support, though only after we embrace such policies ourselves.

Post 8

Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
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eli wrote:

"this way, neither side has to be destroyed, only evil ideas must perish."

er, well, actually, the "side" of the palestinian anti-life murderers would have to perish. what i meant was that the people in both nations could survive (aside from those individuals so bent on destruction that destruction is the only way to deal with them).

Post 9

Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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Pete--

To answer your question, "Where there any other alternatives to the Jewish refugee problem?" The answer is obvious: yes; relax the immigration laws, and let them into the United States and Britain. The creation of Israel as a Jewish state only makes sense if you take U.S. immigration restrictions on Jews for granted but insist that the immigration laws of Mandate Palestine had to be changed in order to allow a huge in-migration of Jewish refugees into a place that is about the size of New Hampshire. There is no reason why Palestine had to absorb more Jewish refugees than all of the United States.


Post 10

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
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Irfan wrote:

There is no reason why Palestine had to absorb more Jewish refugees than all of the United States.

By the same logic, there is no reason why Israel should absorb the Palestinians. Isn't immigration to other Arab countries, or to any country that will allow them in, a better solution than to stay in U.N. supported refugee camps for generations?


Post 11

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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Touché...

Post 12

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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You know, one thing that has begun to more than exasperate me, is how the Jews basically have only one "holy land", while everywhere that the Muslim culture expands, it creates another "holy site".

I find it more than a little unscrupulous that a religion such as Islam will annex the "holy lands" of other religions, throw up a shrine, and now cross their arms and purse their lips and proclaim for all time, "now this is ours, too!" 

Seems like everywhere they go, they cement their conquest by establishing it as a token "holy site", just so they can claim trespass and outrage if anyone tries to beat them back for breathing room and constant encroachment.

The Jews have ONE holy land, and it's very small.  The Muslims have Mecca.  And oh yeah, Medina.  And oh yeah, Jerusalem.  And oh yeah, Najaf.  And oh yeah, they can probably claim now just about every city in the United States that has one of their mosques.

At what point does the human race say "enough"?


Post 13

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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heh heh. someone (i forget who) said that he was pretty sure osama bin laden was still alive, because if he was dead, then there would be a new holy site at his place of death, and muslims would have to make pilgrimages there.


governments should not recognize holy sites. not 1, or 50. it should play no part in peace negotiations. it should not be considered a grievance for any people to be cut off from a holy site.

no concessions should be made to irrationalism.

Post 14

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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Eli,

I couldn't agree more.


Post 15

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Pete wrote:

"The main reason I ask the question is that over 50 years later, the most dangerous place on earth for a Jew to live is in Israel."

and

"I don't know, but I do know that Jews have lived in relative safety throughout the West since then, particularly here in America."

I don't think this is the case for the Jews lived in Russia/Soviet Union. They are the majority of the recent immigrants to Israel since the late 1980s. As soon as Russia relaxed its immigration rules, Russian Jews have poured in Israel. Probably most would prefer to go to America, but of course US would not grant them citizenship automatically.





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Friday, August 13, 2004 - 5:25pmSanction this postReply
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After WW2, Jews overwelming wanted to emigrate to America but the Truman adminstration saw accepting Jewish refugees as a vote looser. So they saw Palestine as a way of solving the Jewish refugee problem and their holocaust guilt without creating any negative political consequences.

Its really a case of Truman being a NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard), so he decided on sending them to someone elses backyard and the the Israeli's have been fighting wars with their neighbours ever since.


Post 17

Friday, August 13, 2004 - 8:58pmSanction this postReply
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It's indeed  a shame that they weren't allowed to come here to America.  Perhaps they could have done what the Mormons have done in Utah and form an area where they are the predominate culture - not exactly true Statehood, but better than nothing... 

Post 18

Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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In post 10, Michelle asks:

 By the same logic, there is no reason why Israel should absorb the Palestinians. Isn't immigration to other Arab countries, or to any country that will allow them in, a better solution than to stay in U.N. supported refugee camps for generations?



I agree. I don't accept the idea of a Palestinian right of return. If anyone owes them a right of compensation for their refugee status, it's the initiators of the 1948 war, not Israel.  

The Palestinian philosopher Sari Nusseibeh, who also was the PA's representative for East Jerusalem, gave a lecture at Princeton University last year in which he criticized the idea of the right of return. Someone in the audience got angry and said, "What about the refugees?" He said, "What do you think we want a state for?" His point was that it makes no sense to demand a Palestinian state and then not accept Palestinian refugees. Whatever the flaws in his analysis (and there were plenty), I thought it was a brave thing to say, considering (a) that he was beaten up by thugs for saying it (in Jerusalem, not Princeton), and (b) his family were 1948 refugees who lost everything by expulsion.

He discusses the point in this book: http://www.middleeastbooks.com/html/books/heller.html.


Post 19

Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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Orion,

I don't get this comment:

 The Jews have ONE holy land, and it's very small.  The Muslims have Mecca.  And oh yeah, Medina.  And oh yeah, Jerusalem.  And oh yeah, Najaf.  And oh yeah, they can probably claim now just about every city in the United States that has one of their mosques.

At what point does the human race say "enough"?

Why should anyone need to say "enough"? There are 1.25 billion Muslims in the world. It's hardly a surprise that they have lots of shrines. There are lots of Muslims.

The political issue in Israel is that some Muslim shrines are on or adjacent to Jewish shrines. But with a little bit of commonsense and good will, it shouldn't be hard to work out compromises so that Muslims can go to their shrines and Jews can go to theirs. The  number of Muslim shrines per se is a non-issue.


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