| | George:
-------------- I said: "A nameless, faceless global war on scary technology." -------------- To which you replied: "Ed, that was bullshit. Unless you are blind the enemy has both a face and a name.
The face is that of primitive Islamo-Fascism and its bastard child; Terrorism." --------------
George, I believe that your final conclusion above is correct (primitive Islamo-Fascism and Terrorism are the "face of the devil" on this planet today)--and so I will not bother asking you to marshal any premises for that conclusion. I hope that you will integrate my expressed confirmation of this, also (because then you will better know how to intellectually respond to me).
In fact, I'd like a Global War on Mysticism; followed by a Global War on Subjectivism (something that would SHARPLY increase, after largely eradicating mysticism off the face of this earth).
It's just that I believe that a justifiable war on "primitive Islamo-Fascism and Terrorism" would look different than the current one. I freely admit of imperfect knowledge regarding this doubt of mine--and I've outlined some reasons for this still-doubting-without-all-the-facts-in perspective, in previous posts in this thread.
-------------- The name to the face belongs to the parents that gave birth to him and continue to support him: they go by many names; Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran or North Korea. Of course, today his options in last names has been *reduced* just a tad! --------------
George, I agree (that we beat the dickens out of a real bully)--and that that is NOT, in principle, any kind of an immoral thing to do.
-------------- Ed, you are above this nonsense. --------------
That's debatable.
-------------- Argue until you are blue in the face with me about fighting our enemies in reference to the method, order, planning or whatever - and I will grant you that you may have legitimate concerns ... --------------
Eh? I thought that that was WHAT I WAS ARGUING about (I'll have to go back to previous posts and "check my premises"). And yes, I'm a little blue in the face by now.
-------------- You are forced to damn an America as a half-honest and half-crooked policeman that has taken a bribe, and then declare that on that basis he has lost all his moral authority to stop a rapist and murderer. --------------
God-damn well said, George! Damn you are a good debator! But I don't want to damn America--I love America.
Do you know what my definition of love is George? I discovered it while reading M. Scott Peck. Love is the will to extend yourself for the growth of the subject (of your love). If you are loving yourself, then you cultivate, in yourself, the habits of virtue that lead to your own personal growth. If you are loving others, then you help direct, challenge, appreciate, and reward them for their growth attempts.
I want the US to grow (because it is lovable)--but I don't want the US to grow in ways that make it less lovable; and I'm still not sure that it is (or isn't, for that matter). And that disturbs me immensely.
Picture a father with a daughter he loves immensely. Picture his delight at watching her growing up. Now picture her growing up too fast, George. Picture her staying out much later than children her age, with kids much older than herself ... do you see where this picture is leading? You can get wrong "growth" in both rate and direction. Wrong growth can undermine good like nothing else can.
George, you've used colorful words to express your view, and I am about to return the favor.
Here are some quotes that speak to my point about "wrong growth" (I expect some SOLO-ists to become absolutely enraged by them; and I make no apologies for that which is in their control). This is my last weapon. I honestly did not think that I would have to use it, but with George's strong, intimidating post; I feel like a cat backed into a corner ... Attack of the Quotes:
-------------- "The chief beginning of evil, is goodness in excess" -Menander
"Never let man imagine that he can pursue a good end by evil means. Any other issue is doubtful; the evil effect on himself is certain" -Robert Southey
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -H. L. Mencken
"A radical error of the modern democratic gospel is that it promises, not the good life of this world, but the perfect life of heaven." -Walter Lippmann
"Goodness without wisdom always accomplishes evil." -Robert A. Heinlein
"The very act of sacrifice magnifies the one who sacrifices himself to the point where his sacrifice is much more costly to humanity than would have been the loss of those for whom he is sacrificing himself." -Andre' Gide
"It is the irony of democracy that the responsibility for the survival of liberal democratic values depends on elites, not masses." -Thomas R. Dye and Harmon Ziegler
"[Communism represents] a necessity of sacrificing the idea of what is excellent for the individual to the ideal of what is excellent for the whole." -Thomas DeQuincy
"Politicians are not people who seek power in order to implement policies they think necessary. They are people who seek policies in order to attain power." -Evelyn Waugh
"Power does not corrupt. Fear corrupts, perhaps the fear of a loss of power." -John Steinbeck
"Politics is always a struggle for power, disguised and modified by prudence, reason, and moral pretext." -William Hurrell Mallock
"He who is firmly seated in authority soon learns to think security, and not progress, the highest lesson of statecraft." -James Russell Lowell
"The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy." -Adolf Hitler
"The history of the totalitarian regimes is reflected in the evolution and perfection of the instruments of terror and more especially the police." -Carl J. Friedrich
"Any doctrine that ... weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action ... helps create attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state." -John Dewey
"Integration of government agencies and coordination of authority may be called the keystone principle of fascist administration." -Lawrence Dennis
"All executive power--from the reign of ancient kings to the rule of modern dictators--has the outward appearance of efficiency." -William O. Douglas
"It is not power itself, but the legitimization of the lust for power, which corrupts absolutely." -R. H. S. Crossman --------------
Now, I'll be the first to admit that these quotes don't prove anything. Some of these can even be interpreted to support our current war efforts. And there are certainly many other quotes that would rationally be interpreted as supporting the current war.
The point of the quotes was to provide counter-intuitive instances of "wrong growth"--and that is all.
To some of you: Please do not be upset by the leaps of logic that you took (without my express consent) while reading these quotes. For instance, some of you may note a hideous messenger or two, from above. I searched for quotes first, not names (I did not seek out hideous messengers to cast that stale, irrational inference of "guilt by association"--and if I did not, then I expect you to exercise the sufficient rationality to refrain from the same thought error).
-------------- But Ed, there is no equivalency between the flawed West, and the primitive tyrannies, its not close, it’s not even in the same fucking ballpark. --------------
Agreed.
-------------- Stop providing the moral sanction that the low life cowards and anti-Americans of LewRockwell and others use. --------------
At this point, George, I don't care whose saying what--I just care that what's said is right. And I'm the one who decides, with my sovereign, rational mind; whether something can be known to be right, or not (though I often seek out the discoveries of others, before I find myself in a position to know what can be known to be right).
To be honest George, I haven't yet browsed through the LewRockwell site. And, by merely approximately trusting your comments on them--I don't feel a great need or urge to go and browse that site now, anyway.
Yeah sure, if I was solely looking for confirmation bias and a comfortable social metaphysics--then I'd be (from what you've said of them) looking through that site, in order to "confirm" any "biases" of mine.
George, I'm sorry if anything I've said here confirms some of their articles or reasoning or whatever-the-hell, but that was not my intention. My exposure to them is second-hand through this website, which I STILL believe (and believe that I can logically PROVE) is the most important website in the world.
I'm tired now George, you've drained me--thanks for that.
Ed
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