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Post 20

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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Quoth Clarence Hardy:

"And I sure as hell pefer fighting in Europe or Asia then fighting off some invading enemy."

This is somewhat confusing.

According to your Solo profile, you are "22 and a senior at the University of Rochester in New York. I'm graduating in May and will be working for a conservative think thank in Washington DC."

Unless you're one hell of a multi-tasker who has managed to juggle a full-time commitment in the Armed Forces of the United States, including deployment to Iraq and your full-time class schedule for the last 3 1/2 years, it appears that you don't "pefer" to fight anywhere. Indeed, it appears that your "peference" is to get a tax-subsidized degree so that you can then settle into a nice, safe office in Washington and continue to advocate sending OTHERS do your fighting (and, of course, your dying) for you.

Thomas L. Knapp



Post 21

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
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Quoth Alec:

"To suggest that *our* methods are the agressive and murdersome ones is simply seditious."

By "*our*" I presume you mean the methods of the US armed forces (funny how warmongers identify with those armed forces just enough to work the words "we" and "our" into their rhetoric, but not quite enough to find their way to recruiting offices).

In any case, however, you seem to be asserting that in a conflict, only one side may be "agressive and murdersome." Is there any particular reason you believe that to be the case?

FYI, sedition is advocacy of the overthrow of [your country's] government through violence. Words mean things.

Tom Knapp



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Post 22

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Bob Bidinotto's challenge concerning the source and nature of individual rights, and how this important issue bears on the issue of just war, will not take us where he wants to go. He points out that from Objectivism rights are contextual, as contrasted with the intrinsicist idea of rights held by most libertarians.

While this distinction is valid and important, it does not prove that a (somewhat limited) coercive state is integral to individual rights as a "first principle". Why? Because one must prove that the initiation of force by "government" (actually, not by government but rather by a state) is necessary to and consistent with man's nature, that is with man's rational self interest.

For example, if the state imposes on a population a quarantine ostensibly to prevent the spread of disease, then if I understand Bob's position correctly, it is in one's rational self interest to comply with the quarantine because no rational person wants to live in society in which disease runs rampant. As such, the existence of a coercive state to impose a quarantine must be built into a realistic conception of individual rights. For without a coercive state, the fundamental justification for individual rights, namely rational self interest, is undermined.

However, the idea that a coercive quarantine is necessary to and consistent with rational self interest is unproven. It is my contention that this idea is false, and that such coercive actions contradict rather than uphold man's nature as thinking, choosing, moral agent. For rampant disease is not the only alternative to coercive quarantine; voluntary means of coping with the risk exist and can be shown to be effective. For example, those who fear themselves to be at greatest risk can themselves take steps to avoid contact with others infected by or at high risk to be infected. Exactly what these steps might include obviously depends on circumstances and available means, but resourceful individuals can discover and put to use (and market to others) such measures as they think serve their self interest.

But, one might object, such measures are probably not completely effective and cannot absolutely insure against the risk of contamination. However, we all know that risk cannot be absolutely eliminated even by state coercive measures (that never accomplish what they promise,and that impose other unannounced costs). Further, we all know that no rationally self-interested person would freely choose to take the steps necessary to completely wipe out any risk, since doing so would be prohibitively costly. Thomas Sowell and others have written extensively about the high costs associated with utopian schemes of coercive risk abatement.

To summarize, liberty allows individuals to cope with emergency and extraordinary challenges with flexibility as concerns the circumstances of their lives, as self interest requires. In fact, this flexibility is exactly what makes markets work, not only in emergencies, but in ordinary situations as well. In contrast, the imposition by a state of coercive "solutions" creates impossible circumstances for many that are inconsistent with rational self interest. I am quite sure that we can all envision circumstances in which the imposition of a quarantine might cost someone's life.

I have not forgotten your comments from a month ago about the nature of government, and the problems you see in consistent voluntarism. I hope to systematically address those issues soon. But for now, I see nothing in the idea that government must be consistent with the principle of voluntary association (to be consistent with man's nature) that takes one to pacifism, or opposition to defensive war.  




Post 23

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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Hi Mark, old friend,

Leaving aside the specifics of what might be incorporated within a valid conception of rights (e. g., the various government activities I cited and you disputed), I think we'll have come a long, long way if we even acknowledge that there is a fundamental difference between the Objectivist/contextualist view of rights, and the conceptions of "natural rights" held by many libertarians, anarchists and even conservatives.

You seemed to acknowledge that in your post, Mark. Is it true that we can agree on that much before we march on to argue about (a) which of the theories of rights is valid, and (b) what specifics a valid theory would imply?




Post 24

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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Great posts, as usual, Mark and Tom.

I would like to ask the hawks here a question: could any of you name an aggressive, unjustified war or military engagement in U.S. history? Can any of you name one that you would consider an act of mass murder? Or was every single invasion, bombing, blockade and war in U.S. history—every single military endeavor from the Barbary War to Gulf War II—not an act of aggression?

Are none of the millions who have been killed by the U.S. governments properly considered murder victims of the U.S. government?



Post 25

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
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Mark, I think that you bring up a good point about coercive, centrally-planned, risk control. Though it'd be difficult to sell to many of those supporting all of the recent war efforts.

This aspect is an illustration of the Precautionary Principle of risk minimization--which is all about making worse choices than you have to. The Kyoto global-warming "solution" is a textbook example of the folly of the Precautionary Principle.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/12, 1:34pm)




Post 26

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Quoth Robert Bidinotto:

-----
I think we'll have come a long, long way if we even acknowledge that there is a fundamental difference between the Objectivist/contextualist view of rights, and the conceptions of "natural rights" held by many libertarians, anarchists and even conservatives.
-----

Now this should prove to be an interesting discussion. I look forward to it. I also want to spend more time on your longer piece before commenting on it, to make sure that I understand it before conceding its correctness, attempting to refute it or disputing its application.

Regards,
Tom Knapp



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Post 27

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:11amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Mark Humphrey,

In the Who's Better Off? thread I made the comment:
I haven't seen one yet able to argue convincingly against someone saying that dangerous madmen will not be tolerated. Period. Such madmen will be disarmed whether they like it or not.

When faced with a statement like that, pseudo-libertarians will not argue on the same level. Instead, they always run back to their new God, The Non-Initiation of Force Principle, and try to draw you into talking about it.
You just responded to Robert:
He points out that from Objectivism rights are contextual, as contrasted with the intrinsicist idea of rights held by most libertarians.

While this distinction is valid and important, it does not prove that a (somewhat limited) coercive state is integral to individual rights as a "first principle". Why? Because one must prove that the initiation of force by "government" (actually, not by government but rather by a state) is necessary to and consistent with man's nature, that is with man's rational self interest.
I want to thank you for illustrating my point so quickly and so well.

Michael




Post 28

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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Hi Bob. You're right that individual rights are the logical extension into social settings of objectivist insights about moral values. Man's life is the standard of moral values, a fact that can be demonstrated as a first principle. The moral good is consistent with values that enable one to achieve a proper human life (a life consistent with the all the requirements of what it is to be a human being); the bad contradicts or sabetages one's developement as a proper human being. When one encounters another who attempts to initiate force to restrict one's freedom to choose, one is right to use defensive force to preserve the values necessary and appropriate to one's well-being, including the freedom to make bad choices. For man's nature as moral agent requires the freedom to choose, and to suffer or enjoy consequences. Of course, initiating force against another can be shown to be a bad choice that undermines the initiator's self interest and literally negates the initator's rights. But setting aside the issue of the initiator's self interest, his victim has the right to defend his values from offensive force.
 
It is unfortunate that many libertarians regard individual rights as an article of their faith, believed to exist if they affirm it fervently enough. That's why Rand's insights about the source and nature of moral values (and the philosophy that underlies it) are essential to making a good case for rights, and for the value of liberty.

I did not choose the example of a coercively imposed quarantine with the idea that it proves that all voluntarism is consistent with self interest. I chose it to illustrate our differences about individual rights. I think that consistent voluntarism accords with man nature as a being of volitional consciousness. But if that's true, then I ought to be able to prove that every instance of the initiation of force contradicts self interest. The most difficult issue concerns the right of succession of any individual from a state. I haven't proven that the right of succession is consistent with self interest, but I suspect I can prove it (with plenty of help).

But not today. 




Post 29

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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Robert-

Looks very interesting! I'll read it and followup in that way-too-active-for-lunch thread tonight.




Post 30

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 6:42amSanction this postReply
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Every American military intervention in the twentieth century, and most in the 19th century, were instances of offensive force

That attitude is no more pro-Saddam than it is pro-Hitler




Post 31

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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To Tim Sturm: your reaction to my claim that World War II was non-defensive from the standpoint of the United States (but also from the standpoint of Britain and France, a topic for another day) is understandable. Nearly all Americans and British have absorbed uncritically the history of the Great Crusade that was written by the political Left-- propagandists dedicated to the proposition that Roosevelt and Churchill were Crusaders for Freedom against the forces of Hitler and Naked Aggression. (Recall that this is the same FDR that generations of American school kids know as the hero who "saved capitalism from itself").

The truth, however, is much different. In his article entitled "The 'Good' War" on yesterday's (April 11) Lew Rockwell.com, Harry Browne links to a superlative article by Michael Kreca.  The link is in the third paragraph "let alone cross the Atlantic to Conquer the United States". Mr Kreca thoroughly refutes the notion, repeatedly pitched to reluctant Americans by FDR, that Hitler had the ability (or the ambition) to invade the United States. Hitler's   agenda of conquest was to the East.

I bring this article to your attention because Americans of nearly every ideological stripe, including conservatives, libertarians, and Objectivists, have swallowed whole this orthodox history, which is demonstrably false. If one bought the Left's history of the Industrial Revolution and the rise of capitalism--that greedy capitalists exploited women and children in sweatshops, that heartless monopolists drove small businessmen and yoeman farmers to ruin--one would find it impossible to uphold laissez faire capitalism as a moral value.  For by accepting the Left's history of capitalism, one necessarily accepts the concepts of economics and ethics that inform that history. Similarly, if one buys the history of the Second World War from the Left, one will unconsciously absorb their ethical notions of altruism and coercive paternalism as applied to foreign policy.

World War II was, of course, a profoundly influential event that shaped the world view of subsequent generations of Americans about foreign policy. The ideas the vast majority of Americans hold, about what is just and proper in American war-making, reflects the Left's history about that event. It might be worthwhile to carefully review that history for the purpose of establishing whether or not the goals and methods of that war were actually consistent with the value of individual liberty that we all want to defend. Even if I am completely off base about all of this, an honest thoughtful investigation would only strengthen your ability to refute my errors.




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Post 32

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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Robert:

Do forgive me for harping on a somewhat obvious point, but if I were writing a movie, I would not be able to do better than what is unfolding today for concretely illustrating a simple observation:

Mark H wrote:
I think that consistent voluntarism accords with man nature as a being of volitional consciousness. But if that's true, then I ought to be able to prove that every instance of the initiation of force contradicts self interest.
After those magnificently perceptive posts of yours today on the nature of rights, here is that damn "initiation of force" bait popping up again to drag the discussion back off target. Just like you didn't say anything at all.

It always sneaks in that way. Once you bite - and once the essential issues then go down the drain - it really doesn't matter what you say after that. The pseudo-libertarian discourse has win the argument by default.

I do realize that non-initiation of force is a valid social principle - but I get sick of seeing it constantly pimped off like a cheap whore like that.

Michael




Post 33

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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"Indeed, it appears that your "peference" is to get a tax-subsidized degree so that you can then settle into a nice, safe office in Washington and continue to advocate sending OTHERS do your fighting (and, of course, your dying) for you."

Tom- attacking the man instead of the idea doesn't help anti-war arguments any more than the name-calling done by some pro-war elements helps theirs. Your post might be a nice way to get into a Rand-style defense of the choice to attend state-subsidized school though, which could be a refreshing tangent from the war rathole.




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Post 34

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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Bob, one last comment before I shut this damn machine off for the next 4 days. I have always understood (I thought) that rights are the extension into social affairs of the moral principles of self interest; that's the context from which rights are derived. So, although I haven't thought all of this through carefully, my reaction to reading your entire post to Anthony Gregory is that I agree with much of your commentary. So, for example, I don't imagine that I must forfeit my rights to spare innocents held hostage by one who is about to attempt to murder me.

But where we disagree concerns the issue of what actions uphold versus violate the principle of self interest. Provided that it was clear that my life was imperiled by this hostage taker, I should take action to eliminate the threat, even killing the unfortunate hostage. But such action should be taken only as a clear last resort, because it is in my self interest to uphold the value of human life, in this case the life of the hostage.

If the hostage taker were threatening me with robbery instead of murder, then it is not clear that I have the right to kill the robber and hostage. For the retaliation ought to be proportional to the threat. If the retaliation may properly be disproportional, then most people have the right to kill most other people, including their parents, gym teachers and annoying kids. Moreover, I doubt that disproportional retaliation or defense accords with self-interest rightly understood.

If we apply these thoughts to the War in Iraq, the American invasion and occupation is, to put it politely, grotesquely disproportional to the "threat" if any posed by Saddam Hussein. In what way did his army threaten Americans in the United States? In no way. Recall: no WMDs, no poisonous drones poised to fly over American cities, no nukes or delivery systems, no credible evidence of his intent to attack! Did Saddam Hussein pose a credible threat to Americans by virtue of some suspected sympathy for terror against Americans, or because it is possible but unproven that someday he might provide aid and comfort to some group that might threaten Americans? Almost certainly, no. And again, the American "defense" against such a threat is disturbingly out of proportion to the reality of such a "threat".

Does the American invasion of Iraq accord with the self interest of individual Americans whom our government claims to represent? No. It is not in our self-interest for the U.S. government to go on a killing and property destruction rampage: human life is precious, and such wanton destruction makes Americans targets of the embittered ideological movement that hates the West. Rather, our self interest is congruent with the preservation of human life, which is a value; with voluntary trade across borders; with the extension of the division of labor to millions; with spreading the light of reason and the ideas of individual liberty throughout the world; and with throttling the American state's ravenous appetite for oppressing the rights of its own citizens in its surreal pursuit of  "Cosmic Justice".

Are the hatreds and political grievances of violent irrational terrorists completely disconnected from reality? They are not. The United States has no good reason that accords with the self-interest of Americans to maintain a military presence on another continent, particularly in light of the tragic history of the cost in human life of previous US military adventures. The basis of the obsession of Pentagon policy wonks with running things in that area is oil. But oil is the object of official fascination only because our government persecutes Big Oil, thereby restricitng supply and enriching incompetant and violent Middle Eastern Mafioso's. In this sense, our foreign policy is an extension of our domestic policy, as Rand might have put it.

I don't mean to duck what I am sure will be your interesting response by unplugging my machine, Bob. But seriously: the tax man approaches. I'm glad you opened this line of inquiry, and I look forward to reading and thinking about your criticism.




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Post 35

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Mark writes:

 ...where we disagree concerns the issue of what actions uphold versus violate the principle of self interest. Provided that it was clear that my life was imperiled by this hostage taker, I should take action to eliminate the threat, even killing the unfortunate hostage. But such action should be taken only as a clear last resort, because it is in my self interest to uphold the value of human life, in this case the life of the hostage.

If the hostage taker were threatening me with robbery instead of murder, then it is not clear that I have the right to kill the robber and hostage. For the retaliation ought to be proportional to the threat. If the retaliation may properly be disproportional, then most people have the right to kill most other people, including their parents, gym teachers and annoying kids. Moreover, I doubt that disproportional retaliation or defense accords with self-interest rightly understood.

No Mark, on all of this I think we agree. Now here is where we don't:
If we apply these thoughts to the War in Iraq, the American invasion and occupation is, to put it politely, grotesquely disproportional to the "threat" if any posed by Saddam Hussein. In what way did his army threaten Americans in the United States? In no way. Recall: no WMDs, no poisonous drones poised to fly over American cities, no nukes or delivery systems, no credible evidence of his intent to attack! 
But that is contrary to the President's state of knowledge at the time of the invasion.

When, in the aftermath of 9/11, the President is presented intelligence reports contrary to all of those specifics you cited -- such as the information I linked in this post, especially here and here and here and, most comprehensively, here -- just what do you expect him to do? Sit on his hands? Wait and see if a sadistic thug -- who has invaded his neighbors, already used WMD against thousands of innocents, tried to knock off his own father, our former President and stalled for ten years against complying with international arms inspections -- had suddenly reformed? It all painted a grim picture of Saddam preparing all manner of WMD, harboring and conspiring with known terrorists and stonewalling international inspectors seeking the truth.

Our Commander in Chief, who had fresh memories of Ground Zero in southern Manhattan, was being fed -- from the best sources available to him -- loads of information that the Saddam regime represented a clear and present danger to the U. S. Now, a basic principle of the Objectivist epistemology is that one must rely on the best information available in making judgments. The information linked above was provided to Bush not only by the CIA and other U. S. intelligence agencies; it was ratified and augmented by foreign intelligence services, too. Even the UN believed Saddam had WMD he hadn't accounted for. Even the French, Russians and others who opposed our invasion believed that he did: that was why they voted for all those UN resolutions!

Again, put yourself in the man's shoes. Just what in hell was he supposed to do? Ignore all that? Twiddle his thumbs, look out his window and hope no hijacked airliner was headed toward the Oval Office, packed with WMD?

Okay, suppose those intelligence reports had turned out to be correct, and suppose America had been attacked by Saddam agents -- and Bush had done nothing pre-emptive to stop it. What would libertarian critics being saying then? 

You and I both know the answer. They'd be raging against the government and Bush as incompetent in defending our rights and freedoms and safety -- as having ignored the clear message of 9/11 -- as being too focused on things other than our national defense.

Mark, meticulous bipartisan investigations of the lead-up to the Iraq War have not faulted Bush for his decision to go to war, but faulted the intelligence agencies on which he relied for providing him bad information. And the reason for their dismal failure at providing the President with sound information was because liberals, led by former Senators Frank Church and Robert Toricelli, had effectively gutted the CIA and FBI's ability to gather and coordinate intelligence. They imposed so many restrictions on information gathering, especially from "human assets," that the agencies were rendered almost impotent.

President Bush didn't cause this mess; he inherited it.

Ironically, however, these very same intelligence agencies have long been vilified by libertarians and anarchists, who have crusaded for years to shut them down as a risk to our civil liberties. In short, the anti-government crowd endorsed handcuffing and blinding of our spies -- but now excoriate them, and the President who relied on them, for being unable to foresee and prevent 9/11! And if they'd had their way, we wouldn't have these intelligence agencies at all.

In going to war against Saddam, Bush made the only rational and responsible decision possible, based on his full context of knowledge at the time. For him to have ignored the intelligence provided him, which consistently portrayed Saddam as a looming menace, would have been irresponsible to the point of treason.

Now, having made that decision, he has crafted a strategy to make Iraq a seedbed for individual liberty in the political sewer of the Arab world. And according to the information linked here, it appears that he is succeeding in this quest -- notwithstanding your closing misgivings, or the negative propaganda flooding from the mainstream media and the likes of scummy libertarian outlets like Antiwar.com and LewRockwell.com. As for these latter, their continued screeching in the face of all the positive news (which they evade and bury) speaks volumes about their real sympathies and philosophical commitments.

So while we may nominally agree on the philosophical premises that apply to political issues, it is clear that we're applying these principles in very different ways, and to very different sets of facts. As in all things, reality will be the ultimate arbiter. Knowing you, I am sure that whatever your own misgivings, you hope that my optimism about the outcome in Iraq is not misplaced.   




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Post 36

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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Dayamm Robert!

You just keep on coming today. I'm getting tired of sanctioning you.

The 20-20 hindsight on WMD's that is always being dished out needed the clear exposition you so brilliantly provided. (There goes that word "brilliant" again...)

I know that your first post on the Iraq invasion today is getting ready to become an article. I do hope you have time to put some of these later posts in it too. These posts deserve to be preserved in a more permanent, more accessible form.

btw - I am very pleased that you are taking all this time with Mark H, and he seems to be re-evaluating some of his former arguments because of it. Rational persuasion really does work when (a) good will for discussion is involved, and (b) essentials are discussed.

(I have not actually been baiting him - he merely provided all of a sudden some good examples of the rhetorical bias I have been talking about.)

Michael




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Post 37

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:10pmSanction this postReply
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Thomas Knapp wrote:
... some bullshit ...

Unless you're one hell of a multi-tasker who has managed to juggle a full-time commitment in the Armed Forces of the United States, including deployment to Iraq and your full-time class schedule for the last 3 1/2 years, it appears that you don't "pefer" to fight anywhere.

... some more bullshit ...

Thomas, do you support police pursuit of criminals? Well then, shouldn't you be signing up at the nearest police academy?
Do you support those criminals' prosecution by courts? Then why haven't you earned a law degree?
Do you avail yourself of air travel? Then why haven't you personally earned an ATP license?

I can go on and on, with dozens of examples, all of which show how these little "chickenhawk" jibes of yours are nothing but mush-headed sophistry, broadcast from sites like LRC and Antiwar.com and echoed through apparently empty skulls like yours.




Post 38

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:25pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew,

Echoed through empty skulls?  That's a great line!  So vivid and meaningful.  Thanks!




Post 39

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:37pmSanction this postReply
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Robert B.

Your post 35 was magnificent.

Thanks
David




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