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Post 0

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 1:40amSanction this postReply
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And....

So what?

What is this supposed to demonstrate?

The argument seems to be along these lines:

The government can not change the law of gravity,
THEREFORE:
Governments are fundamentaly flawed.

OK I am being a little sarcastic. But really! Is this going to impress anyone?



Post 1

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 2:42amSanction this postReply
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I thought the main argument was that A is A.

Post 2

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 2:52amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Schultz,
    I do not think that Mr. Setzer's intent was to "impress" anyone. His point is that no matter how great our emotional investment may be in any given question, no matter how much we would like or want a particular candidate or policy to succeed, making it the law of the land does not make it so.
    His is an appeal for human logic to precede our desires or wants. He applied an analogy from the sciences (the law of gravity) that no one could reasonably argue, to point out that in the affairs of social structures there are also "laws of gravity": inarguable realities and outcomes that our wishing will not change.
    The moral to his story is this: Politics, like science, is not immune to the law of identity. A law or policy dictating a desire will not result in that desire if it is not based on reality. So you might as well take the time to think and reason out what you advocate before advocating it; the alternative is doomed to failure.

George

PS: By the way Mr.Setzer (and fellow Floridian) thanks for the article, well done!

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 10/24, 2:53am)


Post 3

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 3:56amSanction this postReply
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" the affairs of social structures there are also "laws of gravity": inarguable realities and outcomes that our wishing will not change"

Really? So social conventions are like the law of gravity and can not be changed? Or did you mean something else by 'affairs of social structures'?

The fact of the matter is - like it or not - governments can and often do change a lot of how society operates.

They can't change the Law that 'man needs to eat to survive'... but they can change who can get access to food.

They can't change the Law 'a bullet through the heart will kill a man'....but they can change who is put in front of the firing squad.

To say "the government should not change the way society operates" and "the government does not change the way society operates" are different claims.

Post 4

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 4:19amSanction this postReply
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Let's say we assume: A and not(A)
THEREFORE A (since both are assumed to be true)
THEREFORE A or B (if A is true then (A or B) is also true)
THEREFORE B (since not A) (if A or B is true....and A is not then B must be)

Hence if we accept (A and not(A)) THEN any arbitary statement can be proved to be true.

For example:

I own a house and I don't owm a house.
Therefore I own a house.
It is then true to say that one of these is true:
"I own a house" "I am God"
But I do not own a house (see above)...hence!

I am God.


Post 5

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 5:57amSanction this postReply
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Luther, this would have made an excellent political spot for television.  I'm interested in knowing the reaction of your Toastmaster colleagues when you make speeches like this.  Does the message reach any of them, or make them curious to know more?

Post 6

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 6:19amSanction this postReply
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Martin,
I would argue with you but I think your head is up your butt. I hope you enjoy the view.

Luther,
Excellent article. Thank you.


Post 7

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 6:34amSanction this postReply
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Everyone,
Am I being to harsh on Martin?


Post 8

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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Folks,

I did not expect this article to create controversy on SOLO!

Martin, George basically captured my point that one needs to assure that laws, rules and goals correspond with metaphysically given reality rather than contradict it.  Capitalism corresponds to human nature while communism contradicts it.  This would hold true whether we lived in ancient times of monarchs or modern times of republics.  Self interest and not self sacrifice rules the individual who wants to live.

The same holds true in religion.  Praying for human nature to change will not make it so.

Jennifer, audiences generally get the themes of my speeches even if some disagree with them.  Fortunately, Toastmasters offers a rational and benevolent atmosphere where people can speak freely without interruption.  Very seldom would a member get tossed out of a Club, although the charter has a process for doing so.  Since they forbid discrimination on the basis of race and so forth, Toastmasters does not want to serve as a platform for the Ku Klux Klan or other undesirables!

Bob, I am not sure why Martin did not grasp my message.  Perhaps the live speech carries an extra punch that the printed word does not.


Luke Setzer


Post 9

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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Martin,

In retrospect, and after I've taken a nap, I think maybe I am being too harsh. But what are you even doing posting here? This is an Objectivist site, after all.

You start with a contradiction, "A and not(A)," and, as example, "I own a house and I don't owm(sic) a house," and from this present an illogical sequence and conclusion. This is not logic.

Do you really think like this or are you just trying to aggravate people here?


Post 10

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 3:17pmSanction this postReply
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Nice speech, Luke, but there are a couple of flaws in your argument. The first is that the “law” of identity is an immutable law of nature; the second is the implication that these immutable laws include the nature of human beings.

The first claim merely begs the question, while the second undermines free will, so while this essay may be acceptable as a Toastmasters’ speech, it doesn’t cut the mustard as a philosophical argument.

If you are arguing that human institutions need to take into account what we know of human beings – and I can’t think of any other way of discovering human nature – I would agree. One thing we do know about human beings is the persistence of certain behaviours, for example, religious belief.

This persistence implies a high degree of immutability, which in turn implies that religion is an integral part of the identity of man. Should this apparent fact of nature then be recognised in human institutions, including government?

Brendan


Post 11

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
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Luther:

Great speech!  I too am a fellow Toastmaster here in Arizona.  Moreover, I have to say that I admire and applaud your effort for having the courage to introduce some of the fundamental ideas and concepts of Objectivism into some of your speeches.  Ultimately, this too is a goal of mine.  Nevertheless, again bravo and keep up the good work.

Brendan:

I have been known to be a bit slow on many occasions, but I am having a hard time digesting your recent comments to this thread.  More specifically, I found the following passage to be somewhat confusing. 

You wrote:

--------------------
Nice speech, Luke, but there are a couple of flaws in your argument. The first is that the “law” of identity is an immutable law of nature; the second is the implication that these immutable laws include the nature of human beings.

The first claim merely begs the question, while the second undermines free will, so while this essay may be acceptable as a Toastmasters’ speech, it doesn’t cut the mustard as a philosophical argument.

--------------------

As a child I was fascinated by cartoons.  More specifically, I was particularly interested in those cartoons involving super-heroes: superman, spiderman, the X-men, etc.  Now while I would agree that it would be very interesting to swing through the skyscrapers of a metropolitan city suspended by nothing more than a sinewy spider web, or to fly through the air with my red cape fluttering like superman, as much as I would want or wish these things, indeed, not only would they significantly cut down on my present transportation costs, but heck, they might even help me get a date or two, I think we can both agree that just because humans can't do these things such as these (the implication here being that indeed human beings and their nature have/has a specific identities/identity) , that somehow our free-will has been violated.  Does this makes sense?

--Matt





Post 12

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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Bob asks:

"You start with a contradiction, "A and not(A)," and, as example, "I own a house and I don't owm(sic) a house," and from this present an illogical sequence and conclusion. This is not logic.

Do you really think like this or are you just trying to aggravate people here?
"

It's called Reductio Ab Absurdum.... or something like that Bob.

It is not an illogical sequence and conclusion. The first premis A and not(A) is impossible - but from there on the logic is sound. Go study some simple propositional logic if you are in doubt.

I start with the believe that A and Not(A) can be true at the same time - and then show this leads to ridiculous conclusions.... hence we must not accept that A and not(A) can be true at the same time.

This is not my idea - it is a part classical logic - a defense of logic infact - showing that something can not be true and not true at the same time.

Hence we must accept EITHER A OR not(A).
The law of the excluded middle.
Or as it is put here A is A.

If you read a little more carefully you would see that I was agreeing and not disagreeing with the post!

Do I need to spell everything out?

Post 13

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 8:59pmSanction this postReply
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Matt: “I think we can both agree that just because humans can't do these things such as these [fly through the air like superman]…that somehow our free-will has been violated.  Does this makes sense?”

My comments were possibly a bit cryptic. Luther was attempting to draw an analogy between immutable natural laws such as gravity, and human laws such as legislation passed by Congress.

His implied point is that because a body such as Congress cannot abolish certain “basic facts” of nature, such as gravity, it is equally powerless in the human arena, if its actions are construed as violating human nature – “By the law of identity, we can know that some things cannot possibly be legislated away….”

But this is false. Congress can and does pass laws that affect the actions of human beings, in a way it cannot do with a natural phenomenon such as gravity. So the analogy fails. It would only work if human beings were by nature unable to pass such laws, just as we are unable to fly unaided.

But if human beings were by nature unable to pass such laws -- ie their nature precluded them from doing so -- they would to that extent lack choice, and therefore would lack free will. Lacking the capacity to fly does not undermine free will, but lacking the capacity to make choices does.

Brendan


Post 14

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 8:54amSanction this postReply
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Brendan, Luther's point was about morality.

Morality is about life choices. Life choices can be life-promoting or not. Communism is a great example of a choice that is not life-promoting, but actually anti-life. When life choices are anti-life - then pain, suffering, and death follow.

If you are still in the least bit of doubt about this aspect of reality, then ask the relatives of the tens of millions of Russians who suffered, or failed to suffer through, communism in Russia.

The issue is not whether humans can make choices contrary to the law of identity - it is whether or not they will flourish if they do.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/26, 8:56am)


Post 15

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Luther, it reads like a great speech for a TM audience. I'm sure it was seen as such. I go to Toastmaster in London and have been thinking of ways to introduce good ideas to a group of diverse people without getting their backs up. This article certainly gives me some ideas on the approach.

Martin, one of the many skills Toastmasters can offer you is the ability to offer constructive criticism without having your message lost to negativity. Personally, I was appalled by your initial post. Even if you don't agree with the content, it shows a distinct lack of regard for Luther's effort. I'm sure you can play nice if you want to.

Tim


Post 16

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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Ed: “Brendan, Luther's point was about morality.”

Hi, Ed. I’m getting a sense of deja vue here. Weren’t we just recently discussing perception on another thread? It seems to be lingering unfinished somewhere in cyberspace. Never mind, prudence the better part etc.

My reading of Luther’s article is that it is about identity. My cues for this reading are the heading, “A is A”, and the climax of the article, the claim that identity is “the most basic law of nature”.

Ed: “The issue is not whether humans can make choices contrary to the law of identity - it is whether or not they will flourish if they do.”

The analogy that Luther used was between laws of natural and human laws. His demonstration was intended to show that human actions cannot violate the “laws” of nature, which is true. But the implication that human beings cannot enact laws that are considered to be violations of man’s “nature” is simply false, since human beings pass such laws all the time.

Some time ago, George Bush raised steel tariffs, an action some people would consider a violation of man’s nature. But the tariff exists, and has real-life effects, so Luther’s attempt to draw an analogy between natural and man-made laws is a failure.

If you are arguing that actions such as the imposition of a steel tariff will have bad effects, you may well be right, but that’s an entirely different argument.

Brendan


Post 17

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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"Apalled"???/

Really Tim?

It does not take much to apall you does it? How do you get through an average day in the world as it is if you are so upset by my simple post?

If people are too stupid to understand what I am saying without me spelling it out like I am speaking to four year olds then I guess they will miss out.

Like Orion Reasoner (whose arrogance I begin to respect) I am not about to change my style or way of communicating to protect your sensitive soul.

I like to be negative. I actually think more points are made, more information is aquired if one takes a conrary view. Otherwise there are just page after page of posts basically saying "I agree"... and no new content or debate is created.

It is my style Tim... if you don't like it. Hard luck - I have a point to make and will make it MY way. I am not going to adopt YOUR way. In return, I am not asking you to act more like me either. Sound like a fair deal?

I guess I COULD play nice if I wanted to Tim... guess I don't want to huh?

And as to people that ask:

"Why are you posting on an objectivist site if you don't agree with everything I say - and like everything about me...{whine whine sob sob}"

MY ANSWER:

Because I enjoy it. It expands my mind. It opens up new ideas in my mind I may not have thought of before. Isn't that what this site is for? Am I not using it for its original purpose? Or would you rather it was a sort of support group where everyone tells everyone else how moral, clever and good they are?

Is that a good enough answer for you?

Post 18

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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Good article, well argued. Denial of, and taking actions contrary to, the law of identity, will have dire results. Government trying to "create" wealth, "protect" the needy, or manipulate the economy is contrary to the law of identity. Yes they can and most frequently act as if it weren't so, but the RESULTS of their actions will *always* in the end, be bad. Such is the consequence of denial, much like saying a prayer before stepping into oncoming traffic.

John
(Edited by John Newnham on 10/27, 12:20pm)


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Post 19

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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Martin,
I think you need some "time-out".


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