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Post 100

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 5:59pmSanction this postReply
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I once shared your view, until I realized that the dopey woman I encountered came from the same sub-culture as equally dopey men. I was looking at the wrong women and forming my generalizations from them.
Barbara,

I will take this point into consideration, and hope that for my sake you are correct.  To date, I have been very disappointed with most of the women I've encountered -- whether Objectivist or not.  As I mentioned previously, there have been a few rare and wonderful exceptions (of which you are one). 

The close female friends I have are very much like me, and it has taken me a lifetime to find them.  If there are more out there, I look forward to meeting them.  But there will be no giggling.  :)

I, too, was once flattered when I was told that I "thought like a man." But I don't. I think like a woman who has a lot of male in her and in her thinking process.
On this point I will agree.  I think like both, but lean much more toward a male worldview.  This seems, to me, to be the best of both worlds.  And I like it that way.  :)

Jennifer  


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Post 101

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,
I, too, was once flattered when I was told that I "thought like a man." But I don't. I think like a woman who has a lot of male in her and in her thinking process.
That is one of the most attractively feminine things I've ever heard. (I mean it.) You're quite a dame.

ahem... er... with all due respect, that is...

Michael

Post 102

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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You should see these dynamics in a gay relationship...

Post 103

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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Well, Joe, I didn't want to stir up the hornets by bringing that up, but you're right.  It's certainly something to see.

Jason


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Post 104

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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I've been (and expect for a while to remain) short on time, so I haven't posted in this thread up to this point. I think that Robert is correct about the fact that gender differences exist and must be taken into account. Hong is correct in her identification of those differences as hysteretic - she didn't use the word, but I think that the concept of sub-optimalities that persist after their reasons are history, is precisely applicable here. I'd like to make my own observations available for whatever they might be worth.

If one pays attention to errors in logic, one notices that men commit the error of scope violation much more frequently than women (and I don't want to get at this point into the origin of this fact, just that it is confirmed in reality whenever I keep score, as I usually do.) Scope violation is when one assumes that a conclusion is true outside the contextual scope of its premises. On the few occasions when I hear a woman commit a scope violation, it usually turns out that she is just repeating an argument she learned from a male.

In situations in which men are likely to commit scope violations - when scope tracking becomes difficult - women tend to avoid drawing conclusions at all rather than reason out of context.

A woman will usually assume that if another person is interested in her happiness, that person is also interested in the context in which she is pursuing it. She knows that if you don't know her context, your efforts to collaborate and trade with her for jointly optimal results can turn counterproductive or worse. So a woman's goal for communication may consist of simply bringing your knowledge of her context up to date, so that your initiatives that involve her existential and mental context will take that context into account - and being based on valid contextual logic, will be more likely to achieve your joint goals. She need not know what your future initiatives will be, to know that you need to know her context in order to optimize your mutual cooperation and trade. A man who ignores context is existentially dangerous. If a man is not willing to participate in a mutual context-updating, then he is not likely to be a good mate, or a good father, or even a good friend.

I'll go on a limb here. Rand's other achievement in epistemology, after measurement omission, is her integration of logic with the contextuality of knowledge - and it is an achievement that goes "over the heads" of most male "Aristotelians." I don't know where the female advantage in context-tracking comes from, but I think that Rand's achievements would have been much less likely if she had been socialized, as most men are, to do "universal," de-contextualized "logic."
(Edited by Adam Reed
on 4/09, 11:05am)


Post 105

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 12:54amSanction this postReply
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Adam: What's the difference between "scope violation" and context-dropping?


Post 106

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 2:11amSanction this postReply
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Shayne,

Context-dropping can happen in any argument, logical or not. "Scope violation" is the technical term for the specific error in logic: when a variable is only valid within a specific scope, it is a scope violation to use its value - e.g. by assuming that it has the same value as within its proper scope.

The term "scope violation" comes from object-oriented programming, which requires the same structure of knowledge representation as Objectivist Epistemology. See my paper on this, which was published in Chris Sciabarra's Journal of Ayn Rand Studies.
(Edited by Adam Reed
on 4/09, 10:59am)


Post 107

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 2:49amSanction this postReply
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Robert: "I didn't see the threads on introvert/extrovert styles; but while they may overlap with what I'm discussing -- cognitive styles -- I don't think they're quite the same thing."

I didn't think they were the same. Sorry I didn''t make that clear.

Barbara

Post 108

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 2:58amSanction this postReply
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Adam: "A woman will usually assume that if another person is interested in her happiness, that person is also interested in the context in which she is pursuing it. She knows that if you don't know her context, your efforts to collaborate and trade with her for jointly optimal results can turn counterproductive or worse. So a woman's goal for communication may consist of simply bringing your knowledge of her context up to date, so that your initiatives that involve her existential and mental context will take that context into account - and being based on valid contextual logic, will be more likely to achieve your joint goals"

What a fascinating observation! I'd never thought of it before, but I realize it's something I do constantly, and I'd feel uneasy dealing with someone if I didn't do it.

Barbara

Post 109

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 3:00amSanction this postReply
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Adam, the link you posted to your article didn't take me there. Please advise.

Barbara



Post 110

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 5:43amSanction this postReply
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Barbara, try this link:

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/events/advsem03/ReedOOP.pdf


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Post 111

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 6:17amSanction this postReply
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Adam,
Thank you very much for your highly intelligent post (as usual). Yes, my own observations are in full agreement with your theorizations. However, I can't help but remembering something Michael SK said before that you might be "making poor use of that magnificent brain of yours here". I wonder how many would truly grasp what you are saying here - without committing the error of scope violation?! That is the key, isn't it? 

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 4/09, 6:28am)


Post 112

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

I wouldn't call an argument that violated the laws of logic "logical." So I don't agree with your categorization of fallacious arguments into logical and non-logical categories. Anyway, what would have been wrong with the term "context-keeping" instead of "scope-tracking"?

Regarding OO, I'm an expert in it and know all about scoping issues in programs. I agree that there's a relationship to Objectivist epistemology, but I'm not seeing the point in using technical terms in OO in a philosophic context. Rather I think the reverse is more useful, i.e., using epistemology to guide the specific technical issues in OO.


Post 113

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

Thank you. I've fixed the link now.

Post 114

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

This has nothing to do directly with the subject of this thread so please accept my apology. I simply need some clarification about something in your post if you have the time.

I'm unfamilier with the concept of "scope violation."  You define it as "assuming that a conclusion is true outside the scope of its premises."  How does this work? An example would help.  Does it apply only to deductive arguments, and if also inductive, what would be an example? 

Thanks


Post 115

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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Takeyes,

There are a couple of examples in the article. Please read them and ask me again if they are not enough.

Post 116

Saturday, April 9, 2005 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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"Films, arts excursions, fiction discussions, poetry readings, self-help speakers, parties, dances, etc.," -- Robert, these are excellent ideas.

They transcend the issue of the two sexes and can more widely help build fellowship and heal the mind/body imbalance among Objectivists.

Reading your posts and listening to your talks, I see the thinking behind "The Atlas Society", TOC's project to attract and provide a home and activities for fiction fans not just those philosophically convinced.

When the AS was announced and you were put in charge of it as a separate venture, I thought at the time that it was a great idea and that it fit in with your sensitivity to the esthetic and psychological and "human" side of Objectivism.

And that thus you would be an ideal person to make it work.

The idea of appealing to the not necessarily "analytical" or philosophically sophisticated, the Rand fiction readers had the virtue of a potential market of millions rather than thousands.

Yet it just slipped away quietly in the night without ever even -attempting- to hold a single promised event. I don't think TOC really gave us much of an explanation.

So what happened to the Atlas Society? Wasn't it even worth -trying- to hold a pilot event? Otherwise the test is purely a web site or a 'virtual' way to build community.

Give us the whole story please!! Not just a cryptic one-liner.

It's just as important to learn from our failures, not be silent or embarrassed about them, if we want to change the world.

Phil

Post 117

Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 8:03amSanction this postReply
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Phil, the decision to scale back The Atlas Society from my vision of its becoming a full community for Rand readers (including public events), to being a simple online website for  Rand fans, was not mine. When setting its goals, TOC decided that other priorities were more important. It's as simple as that.

Post 118

Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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[The Atlas Society] "TOC decided that other priorities were more important. It's as simple as that."

Oh.

Now I completely understand.

Thank you so much.



Post 119

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
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Michael K: "You're quite a dame"

And THAT'S one of the nicest compliments I've ever received!

Barbara.


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