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Post 100

Friday, April 6, 2007 - 4:15pmSanction this postReply
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http://www.people.ex.ac.uk/bosthaus/research.html


“Adult dogs (Canis lupus familiaris) have been found to have an understanding of visible displacement (stage V of object permanence) (Gagnon & Doré, 1992). Gagnon and Doré also observed no differences between several breeds of dogs and confirmed that dogs did not make use of olfactory cues to find the reward.”


Post 101

Saturday, April 7, 2007 - 10:53pmSanction this postReply
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Before I respond in detail, there needs to be a response in the particular. Jon L. is making some bold claims about my "position" -- so I thought it necessary to make my position unmistakable (to avoid confusion). Here is my original position ...

If axioms "originated" in sense perception, then animals would understand axioms, too -- but this isn't true. An 18-month old human stares for a long time at magic tricks (where some part of "existence" vanishes), dogs don't though. If you put 2 balls behind a screen for instance, and then pull back only one (the 2nd "appeared" to vanish), dogs don't bat an eye
From the quote above you can see that I'm talking about whether animals understand axioms or not (whether dogs bat eyes at magic tricks is supportive, but not constitutive, of my main point). That is my start point, and that is my finish point. It is whether animals understand axioms. That's what I'm arguing about.

Now, Jon L. has made a stink about this, misrepresenting my written views. Saying that it was never about whether animals understand axioms, only about whether a given dog bats an eye or not. This is not a proper way to argue against my main point -- and I wanted to register my disagreement with his method (before engaging him directly).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/07, 10:55pm)


Post 102

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 12:29amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You wrote, “This is not a proper way to argue against my main point.”

But I am not arguing, and have not argued, against your “main point.”

I argued against your assertion that dogs lack object persistence, and you argued back.

Even if I were arguing against your “main point,” in what way would it be improper to show that a point—which is an element of your “main point”—is false?

You say I have misrepresented your views. Where?

If you regret having said that dogs lack object persistence, then just come out with it.

(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 4/08, 12:57am)


Post 103

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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Jon, I don't feel you understand me. Perhaps you don't care to. Anyway, for clarity, check out this quote (post 82) ...

What this says unquestionably, is either that dogs can remember (which is, itself, uncontroversial), or that dogs are using perception other than sight, in order to pick-up the existence of an existent in existence. I'm looking for more than that. In attempting to show more than that, your experiments have fell shy of a "crucial experiment" criterion. ...

As for the birds and the clouds, I'm pretty sure that all predatory animals track prey similarly (whether behind trees, bushes, clouds, or whatnot). I don't take "tracking" to be evidence of an animal understanding what "existence exists" means.

... now, there are at least 2 ways to interpret this quote:

1) acknowledge that I acknowledge that dogs remember things that they've perceived, and that they even track things that are coming into -- and going out of -- their perceptual field

2) pretend that I actually don't acknowledge that dogs remember things that are no longer immediately perceived, and then fault me for staking some kind of claim that dogs lack object permanence, or something

The 2nd option involves some leaps and evasions, but it is what you have opted for -- in your ongoing argument with me. I would have preferred to have been better understood than that.

Ed


Post 104

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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I’ll take number one: I acknowledge that you acknowledge that dogs remember things that they've perceived, and that they even track things that are coming into -- and going out of -- their perceptual field.

I acknowledge that you have acknowledged object persistence in dogs.

This was fun, thanks, Ed.


Post 105

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 1:32pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

It's great pleasure being (finally) understood.

Ed


Post 106

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
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It must have been very frustrating, knowing the whole time that dogs have object persistence, and me failing to see that you knew it.

I apologize for that.


Post 107

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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GWL: "I'm now 'perceiving' an isosceles triangle in my mind.  While doing this, I'm quite aware that my means of awareness of the triangle is not sensory.  This is a counterexample to your claim.  "

Interesting discussion.
A question:

How did you first become aware of what an isosceles triangle's properties are and how did you learn what one looked like if not by sensory means? Was this concept(isosceles triangle) imprinted on your brain at birth?


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Post 108

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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How did you first become aware of what an isosceles triangle's properties are and how did you learn what one looked like if not by sensory means? Was this concept(isosceles triangle) imprinted on your brain at birth?
It seems to me better to say that the concept of triangularity did not come to us through the senses, although it is by the senses that we are made aware of it. 

For innate ideas are of necessary truths, such that when we perceive an instance of, for example, a geometrical shape, we realize that some of its properties are necessary to all geometrical figures of the same kind.  This realization involves the recognition of an innate idea that lies latent within the mind before being brought to conscious awareness through the particular experience. 

The concept of an isosceles triangle, therefore, must somehow lie latent in the mind of the person, as this is the only way for its necessary properties to be derived from particular experience.  

Innate ideas originate in the mind.  If the mind begins to exist at conception as a sort of inexperienced soul, then it makes sense to say that all innate ideas are present within the soul upon conception-- not at birth.   


Post 109

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 9:28pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

It must have been very frustrating, knowing the whole time that dogs have object persistence, and me failing to see that you knew it.
Well, I must admit, it was a little trying (at times) but, as you can clearly see, I got through it alright. Talking on the internet often takes extraordinary patience. Fortunately, I am able to employ such a thing.

And now that we've got that difficult stuff out of the way, let's move on to the easier-to-understand dynamics of dog-epistemology. In this manner, we might not only come to understand one another better, but perhaps even the actual issue at hand (the issue of dogs and axioms).

Dogs don't question where things come from. If you show an empty space, and then shield it (with an obstacle) from the dog's view, and then reach behind that visual obstacle to appear to grab a ball (out of "thin air"), then the dog will act just the same as that dog always acts when that ball is presented to her. Try that with a human infant, and you'll get a prolonged stare (at least that's what the psychologists Elizabeth Spelke and Karen Wynn have found).

It's a specifically-human thing.

Ed


Post 110

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Hall writes:

How did you first become aware of what an isosceles triangle's properties are and how did you learn what one looked like if not by sensory means? Was this concept(isosceles triangle) imprinted on your brain at birth?
Where concepts come from is indeed an interesting question. Let's take the definition of a circle: "a closed plane curve every point of which is equidistant from a fixed point within the curve."

Given even the finest printers we have today, we are not able to print an exact circle according to that definition. There are always some pixels that are a itty bitty off. So since we have never experienced an exact circle, why do we define all circles with a definition that has never been met or perceived?

It seems the following definition would be more appropriate: "a closed plane curve every point of which is somewhat close to equidistant from a fixed point within the curve." This is what we perceive, and is the only thing we ever have perceived. So, the notion of a circle as "a closed plane curve every point of which is equidistant from a fixed point within the curve," has to come from someplace else, not from perception.

Then there is always the problem that has been discussed in a number of threads here:

Given the world view of Objectivism, how do you justify any of your perceptions? Given the Objectivist world view how do you get to knowledge at all?

GWL, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.

Regards,

G. Brady Lenardos 


Post 111

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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Ed: “You're wrong [that Rand claimed the axioms are “present” in the very first perception] and I can prove it but, because it will take some time, I will do this later (probably next weekend) ...”

Weekend’s up, Ed. What have you discovered? Here’s what I have discovered:

ITOE: “An axiomatic concept…is the fundamentally given and directly perceived or experienced…”

ARI: “Existence and consciousness are facts implicit in every perception.”

So it looks like Ayn Rand at least regarded the primary axioms as present in perception.

Brendan

Post 112

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Brady,

No one here is saying that if you have an idea, that idea must have a perceptual object. To cite Hume's famous example, I have an idea of a golden mountain. Must I, therefore, have perceived a golden mountain? No, of course not. Ditto for perfect circles, etc. Does that mean that golden mountains and perfect circles are innate ideas. No. It simply means that we can abstract from our perceptions. But to get the idea of a golden mountain, you do need sensory input. E.g., you need perceptual evidence of gold color, etc. To get the idea of a perfect circle, you need perceptual evidence of lines and shapes, and so on. All we're saying is that perceptual evidence is required for concept formation.

As for justifying our perceptions, a "perception," according to Objectivism, is the basis of awareness. Therefore, a percept requires no justification, because it is not the sort of thing that can be mistaken. Perceptual identifications can be mistaken. For example, I may identify the person coming towards me as John, when in fact, it's Mike, his twin brother. In do doing, I have made an error in my identification, since I have interpreted the evidence of my senses incorrectly, but my perception itself was not incorrect. The person I perceived was Mike, not John; I simply mistook him for John.

Now, you ask, but how do you know that every perceptual identification you make is not in error, since when you make an error, you're not aware of it? Well, the concept of an "error" is arrived at only by correctly identifying reality, in contrast to which I can then recognize an error, which is a departure from a correct identification. If I wasn't able to correctly identify reality, I wouldn't be able to correctly identify the fact that I had made an error. Nor would I have acquired the concept of "error" from the experience of having made one. The recognition of error presupposes the ability to identify reality correctly.

Nor is it legitimate to posit the possibility of error without any evidence of it. From the fact that it's possible for people to be in error in some situations, it does not follow that it's possible for them to be in error in all situations. If I make an error in adding two numbers, for example, that doesn't mean that every time I add two numbers I could be mistaken. Similarly, from the fact that I mistook Mike for John does not mean that every perceptual identification I make could, therefore, be in error. If claims to knowledge require evidence and justification, then so do claims for the possibility of error. If there is no evidence for the possibility of error -- if all the relevant evidence supports and none contradicts -- then one is justified in claiming knowledge.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 4/09, 11:15am)


Post 113

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan, thank you for your argumentative tenacity.

ITOE: “An axiomatic concept…is the fundamentally given and directly perceived or experienced…”
Okay, let's begin. Please first take note that the subject matter REQUIRES pedantry (to be properly understood). In this vein, even the sentence above is worded incorrectly -- it says more than it should and, at the same time, not enough.

Axioms are things that can be conceptualized -- and when this is done, one is said to have advanced to the position of the employment of an axiomatic concept. The truth (i.e., the correspondance to reality) of axioms, however, is something that can be perceived (but only by conceptual beings able to understand and integrate their perceptions).

Axioms aren't present in any or every (or the very first) perception -- as if axioms were packets of perceptual information to be differentiated from our perceptual field of awareness. But the truth of axioms is potentially present during the perceptions of conceptual beings; if only tacitly so. What Rand meant is that the information required (upon subsequent rumination) in order to gain the employment of axiomatic concepts, is given in the basic percpetions of a conceptual being -- i.e., that no 'special' (but rather, merely general) perceptions are required for a conceptual being to gain the mental employment of axiomatic concepts.

In sum, we merely need to add mental reflection to our perceptions -- in order to gain the employment of axiomatic concepts in our thinking. We don't need special perceptions to aid us in this endeavor -- everything needed is already there. We are merely required to think straight about our perceptions -- in order to gain the employment of axiomatic concepts.

In analogy, the recipe for gaining employment of axiomatic concepts, requires but a single ingredient (perceptions) along with a single, competent chef.

;-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/09, 12:53pm)


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Post 114

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 3:42pmSanction this postReply
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Bill wrote:

No one here is saying that if you have an idea, that idea must have a perceptual object. To cite Hume's famous example, I have an idea of a golden mountain. Must I, therefore, have perceived a golden mountain? No, of course not. Ditto for perfect circles, etc. Does that mean that golden mountains and perfect circles are innate ideas. No. It simply means that we can abstract from our perceptions. But to get the idea of a golden mountain, you do need sensory input. E.g., you need perceptual evidence of gold color, etc. To get the idea of a perfect circle, you need perceptual evidence of lines and shapes, and so on. All we're saying is that perceptual evidence is required for concept formation.
Hi Bill, thanks for responding. I am only going to go over your first topic, when we are done with that I would like to return to your other comments.

I am aware of Hume's example and similar examples from others. Hume writes:

When we think of a golden mountain, we only join two consistent ideas, _gold_, and _mountain_, with which we were formerly acquainted. A virtuous horse we can conceive; because, from our own feeling, we can conceive virtue; and this we may unite to the figure and shape of a horse, which is an animal familiar to us. In short, all the materials of thinking are derived either from our outward or inward sentiment: the mixture and composition of these belongs alone to the mind and will.
These are what Descartes calls fictitious, which are fashioned by the thinking subject out of ideas derived from the senses. We might add the idea of the Unicorn as another example. We have the core idea of a horse and the core idea of a horned animal, by putting the two together we come up with the idea of an Unicorn.

The problem is that the core idea of a circle is "a closed plane curve every point of which is equidistant from a fixed point within the curve." It is not based on two other sensed ideas brought together.

The difference is also shown in how the terms are used. For instance, we tell our children that Unicorns (or golden mountains) are nothing but myths. No one has ever seem one and there is no hard evidence that one ever existed. When it comes to circles, just the opposite is true. Simply because no one has ever seen one and there is no hard evidence that one has ever existed, doen'ts mean we tell children that circles are myths. In addition, when a child draws something kind of round, we lie to him and tell him that is a circle, even though there are more points which are not equidistant from a fixed point within the curve, than are.

When a student in a geometry class uses a compass to draw a "circle," even though it all the points are not equidistant from a fixed point within the curve, we still call it a circle, not "a round thing closely resembling a circle."

Our definition of a circle is unattainable by the human hand, yet we seek to attain that which we have never experienced. We have a core idea for which there is no correspondence in reality. Yet without the ideas of the circle, square, straight line, and our attempts for their perfection, all of our buildings would fall around our heads. None of that is true of golden mountains or Unicorns. To try to equate circles and golden mountains is absurd in "both fact and in principle", as Hume would say.

Regards,

G. Brady Lenardos



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Post 115

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 3:57pmSanction this postReply
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No one here is saying that if you have an idea, that idea must have a perceptual object. To cite Hume's famous example, I have an idea of a golden mountain. Must I, therefore, have perceived a golden mountain? No, of course not. Ditto for perfect circles, etc. Does that mean that golden mountains and perfect circles are innate ideas. No. It simply means that we can abstract from our perceptions. But to get the idea of a golden mountain, you do need sensory input. E.g., you need perceptual evidence of gold color, etc. To get the idea of a perfect circle, you need perceptual evidence of lines and shapes, and so on. All we're saying is that perceptual evidence is required for concept formation.
Neither of us (us:  Brady and I) disputes the fact that experience is integral to concept formation in humans.  What we contest is the idea that experiential content is sufficient for concept formation. 
As for justifying our perceptions, a "perception," according to Objectivism, is the basis of awareness. 
But perception is not the sole basis of awareness.  The presence of a perceiver having the cognitive faculties capable of perception is equally basic.   
Therefore, a percept requires no justification, because it is not the sort of thing that can be mistaken.
Would this perceptual infallibility also apply to perceptions formed by direct mental stimulus? 

If not, your thesis is refuted. 

If so, then your thesis becomes trivial-- since, by definition, a percept is just something perceived, a 'mistaken perception' is a contradiction in terms. 
Now, you ask, but how do you know that every perceptual identification you make is not in error, since when you make an error, you're not aware of it? Well, the concept of an "error" is arrived at only by correctly identifying reality, in contrast to which I can then recognize an error, which is a departure from a correct identification. If I wasn't able to correctly identify reality, I wouldn't be able to correctly identify the fact that I had made an error. Nor would I have acquired the concept of "error" from the experience of having made one. The recognition of error presupposes the ability to identify reality correctly.
There are such things as second-order errors.  In logic, for example, mistakes made in a demonstration built upon false premises are second-order errors. 

And the possibility of second-order errors is enough to refute your thesis that "If I wasn't able to correctly identify reality, I wouldn't be able to correctly identify the fact that I had made an error."  For, in point of fact, you could identify errors within your perceptions if these perceptions or aspects of them contradicted either one another or the whole of your perceptual history.  Moreover, in uncovering these errors, you could purge your perceptual history of all internal errors, and contemplate a coherent whole-- yet without any idea as to whether this whole corresponded properly to 'reality'. 
Nor is it legitimate to posit the possibility of error without any evidence of it. From the fact that it's possible for people to be in error in some situations, it does not follow that it's possible for them to be in error in all situations.
Neither does it follow that it's impossible for people to be in error in all situations. 
 If claims to knowledge require evidence and justification, then so do claims for the possibility of error. If there is no evidence for the possibility of error -- if all the relevant evidence supports and none contradicts -- then one is justified in claiming knowledge.
In other words, one is justified in believing that one has knowledge.  For a necessary condition of knowledge is truth, and justification in the sense you've given does not preclude the possibility that what one believes to be knowledge is in fact falsehood. 


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Post 116

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
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Axioms are things that can be conceptualized -- and when this is done, one is said to have advanced to the position of the employment of an axiomatic concept. The truth (i.e., the correspondance to reality) of axioms, however, is something that can be perceived (but only by conceptual beings able to understand and integrate their perceptions). (emphasis mine)
In other words, (but only by conceptual beings in possession of innate ideas capable of integrating their perceptions)

Axioms aren't present in any or every (or the very first) perception -- as if axioms were packets of perceptual information to be differentiated from our perceptual field of awareness. But the truth of axioms is potentially present during the perceptions of conceptual beings; if only tacitly so. (emphasis mine)
The truth of the axioms is potentially present in the mind in the form of latent innate ideas during the perceptions of conceptual beings.     

What Rand meant is that the information required (upon subsequent rumination) in order to gain the employment of axiomatic concepts, is given in the basic percpetions [sic] of a conceptual being -- i.e., that no 'special' (but rather, merely general) perceptions are required for a conceptual being to gain the mental employment of axiomatic concepts. (emphasis mine)

Which means that the axiomatic concepts come from the mind a priori, which means they are innate. 
In sum, we merely need to add mental reflection to our perceptions -- in order to gain the employment of axiomatic concepts in our thinking. We don't need special perceptions to aid us in this endeavor -- everything needed is already there. We are merely required to think straight about our perceptions -- in order to gain the employment of axiomatic concepts.

In other words, we only need to add innate ideas/concepts to our perceptions, as it is impossible to 'think' or 'reflect' without concepts. 

(Edited by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on 4/09, 4:17pm)


Post 117

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Axioms aren't present in any or every (or the very first) perception -- as if axioms were packets of perceptual information to be differentiated from our perceptual field of awareness. But the truth of axioms is potentially present during the perceptions of conceptual beings; if only tacitly so. What Rand meant is that the information required (upon subsequent rumination) in order to gain the employment of axiomatic concepts, is given in the basic percpetions of a conceptual being -- i.e., that no 'special' (but rather, merely general) perceptions are required for a conceptual being to gain the mental employment of axiomatic concepts.

In sum, we merely need to add mental reflection to our perceptions -- in order to gain the employment of axiomatic concepts in our thinking. We don't need special perceptions to aid us in this endeavor -- everything needed is already there. We are merely required to think straight about our perceptions -- in order to gain the employment of axiomatic concepts.
It, therefore, must be true that the existence of God is an axiom, since all atheistic positions deny the existence of free thinking, conceptual beings that can think straight.

G. Brady Lenardos


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Post 118

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
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Zorro wrote:
It, therefore, must be true that the existence of God is an axiom, since all atheistic positions deny the existence of free thinking, conceptual beings that can think straight.
Wrong. I am an atheist and do not deny the existence of free thinking, nor that conceptual beings can think straight. I'm confident there are plenty of others on this forum who would say the same. So please stop making stuff up.



Post 119

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 10:29pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with that 'bird of prey' (hawk?, falcon?) who goes by the name of a popular magician in folk tales.

Ed
[no need to 'conjure' agreement from me; it's freely given -- because you first earned it!]


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