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Monday, September 26, 2005 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew, this is great!  It's given me much to ponder tonight, thanks for serving this up...

Post 1

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Andrew!

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**SPOILER ALERT** -- I've attempted to capture the "gist" of the thing (below) ...
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Mackey's Musings (sorry Tibor!):

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Our capacity to love can expand even further: to loving people from different races, religions, and countries—potentially to unlimited love for all people and even for other sentient creatures.
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Unlimited love -- for sentient creatures?!


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... a new form of capitalism, one that more consciously works for the common good instead of depending solely on the “invisible hand” to generate positive results for society.
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Capitalism consciously working for the "common good?!"


Friedman's rebuttals:

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The practice makes sense only because of our obscene tax laws, whereby a stockholder can make a larger gift for a given after-tax cost if the corporation makes the gift on his behalf than if he makes the gift directly. That is a good reason for eliminating the corporate tax or for eliminating the deductibility of corporate charity, but it is not a justification for corporate charity.
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... my statement that “the social responsibility of business [is] to increase its profits” and Mackey’s statement that “the enlightened corporation should try to create value for all of its constituencies” are equivalent.
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T.J. Rogers' rebuttals:

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... he attempts to negate the empirically demonstrated social benefit of “self-interest” by defining it narrowly as “increasing short-term profits.”
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Why is it that when Whole Foods gives money to a worthy cause, it serves a high moral objective, while a company that provides a good return to small investors—who simply put their money into their own retirement funds or a children’s college fund—is somehow selfish?
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Mackey’s philosophy is more accurately described by Karl Marx: “From each according to his ability” (the shareholders surrender money and assets); “to each according to his needs” (the charities, social interest groups, and environmentalists get what they want). That’s not free market capitalism.
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I am proud of what the semiconductor industry does—relentlessly cutting the cost of a transistor from $3 in 1960 to three-millionths of a dollar today. Mackey would be keeping his business records with hordes of accountants on paper ledgers if our industry didn’t exist. He would have to charge his poorest customers more for their food, pay his valued employees less, and cut his philanthropy programs if the semiconductor industry had not focused so relentlessly on increasing its profits, cutting his costs in the process.
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Hmfph!

Ed

p.s. Can anyone tell me where/how to obtain a VHS/DVD of Stossel's Greed?




Post 2

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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It's available at Laissez-Faire Books..., and ABC.com [see Stossel's site]..


Post 3

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
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Does anyone know if Rodgers is an Objectivist?  Sure seems like one!

Post 4

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 9:30pmSanction this postReply
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A better place to get Greed would be from TOC's Objectivism Store. That way, some of the money you spend on the purchase will go toward helping TOC spread Objectivism.

Post 5

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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TOC spread Objectivism? Do they? :^)

Seriously, this is a great find. Thanks Andrew. And 'Greed' is absolutely pertinent to it.

Post 6

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 11:42pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Andrew!

Ed

Post 7

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 1:37amSanction this postReply
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 Don't get me wrong but. But 'Economics In One Lesson' is a sixty year old book now and, among other things, the concept of trickle-down effect isn't revolutionary any more. You don't have to be Joe 90 to get the idea, and it's old news. It's knuckle-headed stuff! Especially to Objectivists, right? I mean, if in your life you've come to grips with the virtue of selfishness then what business do you have being awe-struck by things like this?

Nice news item to note in passing, sure thing. Jolly good. Capital.

But why so interested? It's feather-weight. Kunckle-headed! What's going to happen one day when news comes that a TJ.Rodgers refutes the Keynesian interpretation of The Great Depression? You're all going to have fatal orgasms!

 Does not your understanding extend further than to be impressed by this?

Oh look, hard news hits here first! This just in: Capitalists are good for the world!
Duh!



Post 8

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 1:52amSanction this postReply
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Great post, Andrew.

Rodgers kicks ass.

Mackey:

"I believe if economists and business people consistently communicated and acted on my message that “the enlightened corporation should try to create value for all of its constituencies,” we would see most of the resistance to capitalism disappear."

Bullshit. Bunkum. Balderdash.

The eviscerators of freedom don't want a kindler, gentler capitalism, they want blood, entrails, gore, death, suffering and annihilation. They'll torture & destroy, endlessly, appetites unsatiated, until they die...

..and *horribly*, if I've got anything to do with it :-)

Ross

Post 9

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 2:02amSanction this postReply
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Rick, for pity's sake...

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

TJ

Nobody's gettin' riled up cos this is breaking news.

It's simply something that bears restating time & time again. There's nothing new under the sun, but sometimes a thing just needs to be dug up an re-illuminated.

Mmmkay?

Ross





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Post 10

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 2:30amSanction this postReply
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I was told there's a rumour on this thread that TOC has taken up spreading Objectivism. Glad to find it's just a rumour. I'm moving house tomorrow, & the shock of hearing that TOC was spreading Objectivism on top of that would be more than my delicate nervous system could take. :-)

Post 11

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:16amSanction this postReply
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Lindsay, hope the move goes well.

Destination Tawa?

Wainuiomata?

:-)

Ross

Post 12

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 4:07amSanction this postReply
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Mmmkay?
Okay Uncle Ross.

But, y'know?


Post 13

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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I work for the fourth-largest newspaper corporation in the United States, and I can tell you that the company brass is very concerned -- very, VERY concerned -- about the price of the stock, quarterly earnings reports and such. This is a good thing, especially since I and thousands of other employees own some of that stock. However, any good corporation must consider employee loyalty and longevity in its business plan, because happy employees produce a good product. (God, I sound like a 1950s educational film). So only considering what the investor gets out of the deal is short-sighted. In other words, you don't treat your employees like shit. In the long run, satisfying the employees and maintaining their loyalty leads to bigger profits. I have experienced some dissatisfaction in this regard, but in general, the corporation I work for is both a money-maker and good to its employees. I see it every time I cash my biweekly paycheck and get my earnings report.

Post 14

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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Rick:

Economics in One Lesson is not about trickle down theory, though that can be inlcuded in The Lesson the book is about: When considering the value of a particular policy, one must consider not just the benefit to a particular group in the short term but the effects on the rest of society, both in the short and long terms.

Jamie wrote:
However, any good corporation must consider employee loyalty and longevity in its business plan, because happy employees produce a good product. (God, I sound like a 1950s educational film). So only considering what the investor gets out of the deal is short-sighted. In other words, you don't treat your employees like shit. In the long run, satisfying the employees and maintaining their loyalty leads to bigger profits.
When a company is facing bankruptcy and needs to fire a whole heap of people should it place its highest priority on the satisfaction of the employees if needs to fire or the value (i.e. long run profitability) of the shareholders' company? It must choose the latter.

While employees properly see themselves as their own ends, from the perspective of management (who represent the board, who in turn represent shareholders) the employees are only the means to the company's (investors') ends. Treat employees well so they continue to grow shareholder wealth but never let it be forgotten who the company exists for.


Post 15

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, of course. Corporations are not welfare agencies, nor are they or should they be bound by altruistic principles. In extraordinary circumstances, it's necessary to fire a lot of people in order to keep the company afloat. Or else the company ceases to exist, and so do the remaining jobs.

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Post 16

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:34pmSanction this postReply
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Profits are merely a means to an end. That end is chosen before the profits are made: what to produce, what value to create....

Profits should never be thought of as an end in themselves. Rogers and Friedman do understand that. It is Mackey who seems to mostly miss this point allthough he is arguing against 'profits as ends'. Dumb.

Oh and the reason you dont treat employees like shit is quite simple: because they are human beings providing the employer, the business with value and should be respected as such, highly even.


Post 17

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew:

Thanks for posting this. My reaction to this Reason article is currently being developed into an article of my own that I hope you will post on Solo. The thesis of the article is this: that this whole debate over how to profitably run a business is moot because in a laissez-faire economy owners of capital (and those they choose to act on their behalf) are free to allocate capital in any lawful manner they wish.

Whatever the owners of capital wish to call the vehicle through which they allocate capital- whether an industrial enterprise or a charitable organization- what matters is the vision that the owners of capital have for it and whether they are effectively earning a return on their capital. Here a matter of subjectivity enters the equation. "Return on Capital" can mean many things: it can mean a return of capital (profits), higher environmental standards, larger product selection, or the number of shelters for battered women opened.

Of course, laws of capital must be followed if the vision of a capitalist (industrialist or philanthropist) are to become reality. An industrial enterprise must be profitable and reinvest some portion of their earnings to capital improvements; and charitable organizations must receive donations and achieve satisfactory results with those donations if they are to be maintained. 

So, does business have a social responsibility? (I was about to put quotation marks over social, but then Roger Bissell would try to assess my Objectivism affiliation, of which I have none). The answer is no, business, meaning any profit-seeking method of allocating capital, can choose to do whatever it wishes with its capital and whether that includes investment in "social" concerns (DAMN IT, Roger is gonna have my head!) up to them. In the end, I want to show that, except in rare circumstances, directing capital in a given manner is amoral and that the moral ideal to be evaluated is the degree of success a capitalist has in seeing their vision come into being...

In seeing their visions flourish, both John Mackey and T.J. Rodgers should be proud, however, I disagree with Mackey when he states, "I believe the entrepreneurs, not the current investors [owners]in a company¡¯s stock, have the right and responsibility to define the purpose of the company." It is the owners whose vision is being actualized through the company, they are free to change that vision at any time and sack the current officers of the company, if they are dissatisfied with present conditions. And, although I do not think he states this explicitly, a business is not required be charitable. If it works for Whole Foods, fine, that is their method of successfully allocating capital but it is not incumbent upon all capitalists to follow that method.

Enough said... the article is forthcoming.

T


Post 18

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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This is reminding me of the movie "Other People's Money"...

Post 19

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew, I just dropped the better part of $100 (on plastic) ordering 3 videos from TOC: Greed + the 2 Donahue interviews of Rand. I sure hope those guys at TOC are "socially responsible" and they ...

-send me the goods, undamaged, and in a reasonable time-frame

-use (the profits from) my money to spread the good word of Objectivism throughout the land

That said, I'm just about as excited as a little kid on X-Mas Eve (I've never seen/heard Rand speak before!!!),

Ed
[caught up in giggling & fidgeting frenzy of anticipation!]



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